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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=718223318-01072009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for your input, everyone. The types are now
live.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Laurent<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Freebase
data modeling mailing list<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Data-modeling] Products
with ingredients<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>+1<BR><BR>-Ed<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Tom Morris <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:tfmorris@gmail.com">tfmorris@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Thanks
for recreating the sandbox. I tried to follow up on this<BR>earlier
today and it had been blown away in the refresh.<BR><BR>I agree with Faye.
Looks good.<BR><FONT color=#888888><BR>Tom<BR></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Jeff Prucher<<A
href="mailto:jeff@metaweb.com">jeff@metaweb.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> And
one last time:<BR>> <A
href="http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/default_domain/views"
target=_blank>http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/default_domain/views</A><BR>>
/cheerios_ingredients<BR>><BR>> Jeff<BR>><BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: <A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A>]
On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher<BR>>> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:38
PM<BR>>> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with
ingredients<BR>>><BR>>> Here's a revised schema with the derives
from/derivative<BR>>> properties. Lemme know whatcha
think:<BR>>><BR>>> <<A
href="http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/defau"
target=_blank>http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/defau</A><BR>>>
lt_domain/view<BR>>>
s/cranberry_almond_crunch_ingredients><BR>>><BR>>>
Jeff<BR>>><BR>>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>>>
> From: <A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A>]
On Behalf Of Faye Harris<BR>>> > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 2:24
PM<BR>>> > To: Freebase data modeling mailing list<BR>>> >
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with ingredients<BR>>>
><BR>>> > +1 on adding the parent-child relationship so that
we'd have both<BR>>> > "variety of" and "derives from" properties,
instead of just<BR>>> the former<BR>>> > for both
purposes.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > -- Faye<BR>>>
><BR>>> ><BR>>> > Jeff Prucher wrote:<BR>>> >
> There are three examples upthread that led to the phylogeny<BR>>>
> pattern,<BR>>> > > each of which is a slightly different
case:<BR>>> > ><BR>>> > > (variety) <-->
(generalization)<BR>>> > > Milled corn <-->
Corn<BR>>> > > Sodium lauryl sulfate (from coconut oil)
<--> Sodium<BR>>> lauryl sulfate<BR>>> > > Enriched
flour (foo, bar, bazz, fazz) <--> Enriched flour<BR>>> >
><BR>>> > > Faye's division fits this pretty
well:<BR>>> > > Milled corn is derived from corn; SLS (from
coconut) is a<BR>>> > variety of<BR>>> > > SLS, and is
also derived from coconut; enriched flour<BR>>> > (etc., usw) is
a<BR>>> > > variety of enriched flour. (Reviewing this thread, I
note that Ed<BR>>> > > suggested a Processed Ingredient type way
back at the outset.)<BR>>> > ><BR>>> > > The big
question is, would we be asking for trouble by adding a<BR>>> >
> parent/child relationship to this, in addition to the two<BR>>>
phylogeny<BR>>> > > patterns? Or should we just punt it
for now?<BR>>> > ><BR>>> > > Jeff<BR>>> >
><BR>>> > ><BR>>> > ><BR>>> > >>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> > >> From: <A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> >> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A>]
On Behalf Of<BR>>> Tom Morris<BR>>> > >> Sent:
Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:37 AM<BR>>> > >> To: Freebase
data modeling mailing list<BR>>> > >> Subject: Re:
[Data-modeling] Products with ingredients<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >> I'm with Faye. It seems very weird
to have rice flour<BR>>> and rice so<BR>>> > >>
strongly related. I don't consider rice flour to be a<BR>>> >
generalization<BR>>> > >> of rice at all. About the
only places where they would<BR>>> > potentially<BR>>> >
>> interchangeable would be for nutritional information or<BR>>>
> for allergies.<BR>>> > >> You might be able to
substitute basmati rice for jasmine<BR>>> > rice if you<BR>>>
> >> didn't care too much about the difference in texture
or<BR>>> > maintaining<BR>>> > >> cultural
authenticity, but if you substituted rice flour (of any<BR>>> >
>> variety), you'd be in a whole heap of trouble.<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> The examples in
the schema descriptions (yay for<BR>>> > >> descriptions!)
seem to have the same problem. You can get<BR>>> >
lavender<BR>>> > >> oil out of a lavender plant, but they
aren't<BR>>> > generalizations of each<BR>>> > >>
other. If anything, the generalization would be aromatic oil
or<BR>>> > >> fragrance or something.<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >> For most applications, it's more useful
to have things linked<BR>>> > >> together because of common
properties rather than<BR>>> because they are<BR>>> >
>> made from the same source material or by the same
process.<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> -1 for making
this even more obscure by linking in Material.<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >> Tom<BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Faye Harris<BR>>> >
<<A href="mailto:faye@metaweb.com">faye@metaweb.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>> Very cool!<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>> That rice flour is called a "variety of" rice in the schema
is<BR>>> > >> indeed very odd.<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >> Based on the sandbox examples, this
schema seems to use<BR>>> > "variety of"<BR>>> > >>
for two types of relationships:<BR>>> > >>
1) variety of, e.g. brown rice is a "variety of" rice<BR>>> >
>> 2) derived from, e.g. rice flour is "derived
from" rice<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> The
former relationship is categorical, the latter relates to<BR>>> >
>> post-processing.<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>> -- Faye<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> Jeff
Prucher wrote:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
OK, I've got the double-phylogeny
pattern<BR>>> > working now. Take a look<BR>>> > >>
here:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> <A
href="http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/type/schema/business/product_i"
target=_blank>http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/type/schema/business/product_i</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > > ngredient<BR>>> >
><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
And here's a table view of the ingredients of
a<BR>>> > breakfast cereal I<BR>>> > >> found
in<BR>>> > >> the office
kitchen:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >> <A
href="http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/jeff/default_domain/"
target=_blank>http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/jeff/default_domain/</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > > views/cranberr<BR>>> >
><BR>>> > >>
y_almond_crunch_ingredients<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>> I'm not really happy with the
"variety of" and<BR>>> > "generalization of"<BR>>> >
>> names,<BR>>> > >>
but I'm not coming up with anything better. Any<BR>>> >
suggestions would<BR>>> > >> be most<BR>>> >
>> welcome.<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
Jeff<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> >
>> From:
<A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com">data-modeling-bounces@freebase.com</A>]
On Behalf Of<BR>>> > Jeff Prucher<BR>>> > >>
Sent: Friday, June
19, 2009 11:42 AM<BR>>> > >>
To: Freebase data modeling mailing
list<BR>>> > >>
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products<BR>>> >
with ingredients<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
----- "Faye Harris" <<A
href="mailto:faye@metaweb.com">faye@metaweb.com</A>><BR>>> >
<mailto:<A
href="mailto:faye@metaweb.com">faye@metaweb.com</A>><BR>>> >
>> wrote:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
From: "Faye Harris"<BR>>> > >> <<A
href="mailto:faye@metaweb.com">faye@metaweb.com</A>> <mailto:<A
href="mailto:faye@metaweb.com">faye@metaweb.com</A>><BR>>> >
>>
To: "Freebase data modeling<BR>>> >
>> mailing list"<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
<<A
href="mailto:data-modeling@freebase.com">data-modeling@freebase.com</A>><BR>>>
> >> <mailto:<A
href="mailto:data-modeling@freebase.com">data-modeling@freebase.com</A>><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009<BR>>> > >> 2:59:19 PM GMT
-08:00<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>>
US/Canada Pacific<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
Subject: Re:
[Data-modeling]<BR>>> > >> Products with
ingredients<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
Jeff Prucher wrote:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
----- "Robert Cook"<BR>>> > >> <<A
href="mailto:robert@metaweb.com">robert@metaweb.com</A>> <mailto:<A
href="mailto:robert@metaweb.com">robert@metaweb.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
One solution would be<BR>>> >
>> to create a topic with a long name -- enter<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
it<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >>
exactly as it
appears<BR>>> > >> on the label such as "Enriched flour
-<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>>
(wheat,<BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >>
niacin, iron, baby<BR>>> > >> powder, sawdust,
DDT)".<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
This would answer.<BR>>> > >> Anyone else have any
comments or<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >>
thoughts on this<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
before I load the
schema?<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >>
The main problem with this is<BR>>> >
>> you can't arrive at the products that<BR>>> > >>
use enriched flour by clicking<BR>>> > >> on a
property link from a single<BR>>> > >>
"enriched<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
flour" topic. Rather, you have<BR>>> > >> to do a
keyword search for products<BR>>> > >>
based
on matching all the<BR>>> > >> various "enriched flour -
(foo, bar, bat,<BR>>> > >>
baz)"<BR>>>
> >>
ingredient topics with the<BR>>> >
>> words "enriched" and "flour".<BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >>
That's quite<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
a loss in queriability.> ><BR>>> > >>
The schema is fine to get us<BR>>> > >> started, but
we're still going<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
to try to<BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
put together some
phylogeny<BR>>> > >> pattern in place (in the near
future)<BR>>> > >>
right?<BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >>
I plan to add a phylogeny pattern<BR>>>
before moving the schema to<BR>>> > >>
<A href="http://freebase.com"
target=_blank>freebase.com</A>, which should help<BR>>> queryability.
It doesn't<BR>>> > >>
address the fact that topics named<BR>>>
things like "enriched<BR>>> > >>
flour (that, that, the other
thing)"<BR>>> > >> are exceedingly ugly,<BR>>> >
>>
however (no-one said it was called<BR>>> "<A
href="http://prettybase.com" target=_blank>prettybase.com</A>",
though).<BR>>> > >>
I was going to post a revised schema<BR>>> to
sandbox, with the<BR>>> > >>
double-phylogeny pattern suggested
by<BR>>> Robert, but it got<BR>>> > >>
horribly munged in the
process. I'll<BR>>> try to fix it, but it<BR>>> > >>
might not be
till next week.<BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >>
Jeff<BR>>> >
>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
>>
Data-modeling mailing list<BR>>> > >>
<A
href="mailto:Data-modeling@freebase.com">Data-modeling@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >> <A
href="http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling"
target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
>> Data-modeling mailing
list<BR>>> > >> <A
href="mailto:Data-modeling@freebase.com">Data-modeling@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> >> <A
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target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
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href="mailto:Data-modeling@freebase.com">Data-modeling@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> >> <A
href="http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling"
target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > >><BR>>> >
>><BR>>> > >><BR>>> > >><BR>>>
> >><BR>>> > ><BR>>> > >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> > >
Data-modeling mailing list<BR>>> > > <A
href="mailto:Data-modeling@freebase.com">Data-modeling@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
> > <A href="http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling"
target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>>
> ><BR>>> > ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>>> >
Data-modeling mailing list<BR>>> > <A
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target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>>
><BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> Data-modeling
mailing list<BR>>> <A
href="mailto:Data-modeling@freebase.com">Data-modeling@freebase.com</A><BR>>>
<A href="http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling"
target=_blank>http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling</A><BR>>><BR>><BR>>
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