From kevin.l.neff at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 02:35:48 2009
From: kevin.l.neff at gmail.com (Kevin Neff)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:35:48 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Table View
Message-ID: <da0081770910311935i7778a4a2sa7c960e65cce2f33@mail.gmail.com>

Can I select which properties show up in the table view of my base?  Can I
customize how my types show up in table view, or is that a feature of the
established types, like Person?

KLN
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From spencerkelly86 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 04:06:40 2009
From: spencerkelly86 at gmail.com (Spencer Kelly)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 00:06:40 -0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Table View
In-Reply-To: <da0081770910311935i7778a4a2sa7c960e65cce2f33@mail.gmail.com>
References: <da0081770910311935i7778a4a2sa7c960e65cce2f33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <db945ac40910312106j1eede642va5efd0c215cf3acc@mail.gmail.com>

hey kln, click the + button, that'l do it.
cheers:)
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 02:41:12 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:41:12 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Combined views
In-Reply-To: <54D8B003-1E5E-4EA5-B62F-7648C748E184@metaweb.com>
References: <be63e0470910292332w13e63bc1yd3b819e3b9d985d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<3F5C04F1-5228-4F38-B5FD-38859045E756@metaweb.com>
	<be63e0470910300936w76ad9307uee9f44bb0eb409cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<A2BB8540-CE77-4418-82F8-1CF01C528E68@metaweb.com>
	<FD0B84DA-1E49-483D-AEC5-7E3A00B4BA27@metaweb.com>
	<54D8B003-1E5E-4EA5-B62F-7648C748E184@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911011841o68b20f64k47e37bc80280a879@mail.gmail.com>

It sounds like an MQL query could be done, but does anyone know how to apply
a custom MQL statement to a view in Freebase? Or would I have to do this
using Acre?

thanks

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:40 PM, <robert at metaweb.com> wrote:

> Yes, indeed, that would be simpler ;-)
>
> On Oct 30, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On 30/10/2009, at 10:32 AM, Robert Cook wrote:
> >> I don't believe you can compose such a query in MQL as it would at
> >> least naively require OR capability.
> >
> > Why can't he do:
> >
> > "type|=" : ["/type/one", "/type/two", "/type/three"]
> >
> > K.
> >
> > --
> > Kirrily Robert
> > Freebase Community Director
> > kirrily at metaweb.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From iainsproat at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 02:44:47 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 06:44:47 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com> wrote:
> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and "research area". An
> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,

There is an academic type
http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/education
but it doesn't have a property for research area.  I reckon it would
be a useful property, expecting a field of study.  (and also having a
reciprocated property for "academics in this field" on the field of
study type).

Iain

From narphorium at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 06:42:15 2009
From: narphorium at gmail.com (Shawn Simister)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:42:15 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Combined views
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911011841o68b20f64k47e37bc80280a879@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470910292332w13e63bc1yd3b819e3b9d985d7@mail.gmail.com>	<3F5C04F1-5228-4F38-B5FD-38859045E756@metaweb.com>	<be63e0470910300936w76ad9307uee9f44bb0eb409cf@mail.gmail.com>	<A2BB8540-CE77-4418-82F8-1CF01C528E68@metaweb.com>	<FD0B84DA-1E49-483D-AEC5-7E3A00B4BA27@metaweb.com>	<54D8B003-1E5E-4EA5-B62F-7648C748E184@metaweb.com>
	<be63e0470911011841o68b20f64k47e37bc80280a879@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AEE7F47.2020308@gmail.com>

There does seem to be an undocumented mechanism for creating custom 
views by passing parameters along with a GET request to the default view 
for a type. However, not everything that can be queried in MQL can be 
represented as a view (yet?) and I would guess that the union of 
multiple types is one of those things that is not supported. You can see 
a custom view constructed from parameters here 
<http://www.freebase.com/view/film/film?current_page=0&filter_mode=type&view_id=table&filter%09p%3Dfilter_1:/film/film/country%09id.%3D=/en/united_states&filter%09p%3Dfilter_2:/film/film/language%09id.%3D=/en/english&filter%09p%3Dfilter_3:/type/object/type%09id.%3D=/film/film&filter%09p%3Dfilter_4:/type/object/type%09id.%3D=/award/award_winning_work&filter%09p%3Dfilter_5:/film/film/production_companies%09id.%3D=/en/universal_studios&filter%09p%3Dfilter_6:/film/film/directed_by%09id.%3D=/en/steven_spielberg&filter%09p%3Dfilter_7:/film/film/music%09id.%3D=/en/john_williams&show%09p%3D/type/object/name%09index=0&show%09p%3D/common/topic/image%09index=1&show%09p%3D/common/topic/article%09index=2&sort%09%09p%3D/type/object/type%09p%3D%3Dlink%09p%3D%3D/type/link/timestamp%09index=false>. 
This is just based on my own experimentation so I can't say for sure 
what is and isn't possible.

Alternately, you could manually upload your MQL query to the content 
service as a text blob and connect it to a /freebase/query object to 
make your own view from scratch. The caveat being that unless you format 
your query exactly as the Freebase UI expects, you will get all sorts of 
errors and mess up the Freebase UI. I'm pretty sure Metaweb discourages 
that approach.

My person preference would be to use a 'bucket type' to aggregate the 
various types of topics and then use the default view of that bucket 
type to display them all. However, if you'd prefer to do it in Acre you 
can easily display the results of a custom query by building your query 
in the query editor like this 
<http://www.freebase.com/app/queryeditor?q=%5B%7B%20%22id%22:%20null,%20%22name%22:%20null,%20%22type%7C%3D%22:%20%5B%20%22/food/food%22,%20%22/food/beverage%22%20%5D%20%7D%5D> 
and then clicking on the "Generate Acre Template" button in the Tools 
panel at the bottom.

Shawn

Paul Mackay wrote:
> It sounds like an MQL query could be done, but does anyone know how to 
> apply a custom MQL statement to a view in Freebase? Or would I have to 
> do this using Acre?
>
> thanks
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:40 PM, <robert at metaweb.com 
> <mailto:robert at metaweb.com>> wrote:
>
>     Yes, indeed, that would be simpler ;-)
>
>     On Oct 30, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com
>     <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>>
>     wrote:
>
>     > On 30/10/2009, at 10:32 AM, Robert Cook wrote:
>     >> I don't believe you can compose such a query in MQL as it would at
>     >> least naively require OR capability.
>     >
>     > Why can't he do:
>     >
>     > "type|=" : ["/type/one", "/type/two", "/type/three"]
>     >
>     > K.
>     >
>     > --
>     > Kirrily Robert
>     > Freebase Community Director
>     > kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Data-modeling mailing list
>     > Data-modeling at freebase.com <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
>     > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>     _______________________________________________
>     Data-modeling mailing list
>     Data-modeling at freebase.com <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
>     http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>   

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From kirrily at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  2 18:00:46 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:00:46 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com>

On 01/11/2009, at 6:44 PM, Iain Sproat wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and "research area".  
>> An
>> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
>
> There is an academic type
> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/education
> but it doesn't have a property for research area.  I reckon it would
> be a useful property, expecting a field of study.  (and also having a
> reciprocated property for "academics in this field" on the field of
> study type).


+1

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  2 18:59:49 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:59:49 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>
	<3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <FD03B2F2A3F84B4BBF93C909CC99983C@p4>

Great idea. I'll go add the properties now. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
> Kirrily Robert
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:01 AM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
> On 01/11/2009, at 6:44 PM, Iain Sproat wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and 
> "research area".  
> >> An
> >> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
> >
> > There is an academic type
> > 
> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/educati
> > on but it doesn't have a property for research area.  I reckon it 
> > would be a useful property, expecting a field of study.  (and also 
> > having a reciprocated property for "academics in this field" on the 
> > field of study type).
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> K.
> 
> --
> Kirrily Robert
> Freebase Community Director
> kirrily at metaweb.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From iainsproat at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 19:02:35 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:02:35 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <FD03B2F2A3F84B4BBF93C909CC99983C@p4>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>
	<3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com>
	<FD03B2F2A3F84B4BBF93C909CC99983C@p4>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911021102i566f8686x58dc1c0b0f6d0d5e@mail.gmail.com>

A question about usage - would dead and retired academics remain
linked to their former field of study?

Iain

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> Great idea. I'll go add the properties now.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of
>> Kirrily Robert
>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:01 AM
>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>
>> On 01/11/2009, at 6:44 PM, Iain Sproat wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and
>> "research area".
>> >> An
>> >> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
>> >
>> > There is an academic type
>> >
>> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/educati
>> > on but it doesn't have a property for research area. ?I reckon it
>> > would be a useful property, expecting a field of study. ?(and also
>> > having a reciprocated property for "academics in this field" on the
>> > field of study type).
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> K.
>>
>> --
>> Kirrily Robert
>> Freebase Community Director
>> kirrily at metaweb.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  2 19:17:25 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:17:25 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911021102i566f8686x58dc1c0b0f6d0d5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com><3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com><FD03B2F2A3F84B4BBF93C909CC99983C@p4>
	<f70332fb0911021102i566f8686x58dc1c0b0f6d0d5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B11C5C8582E748A8B12EC8F1DDDCBA30@p4>

Of course, just like other dead people remain linked to their professions. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Iain Sproat
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:03 AM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
> A question about usage - would dead and retired academics 
> remain linked to their former field of study?
> 
> Iain
> 
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Jeff Prucher 
> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> > Great idea. I'll go add the properties now.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> >> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Kirrily 
> >> Robert
> >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:01 AM
> >> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> >>
> >> On 01/11/2009, at 6:44 PM, Iain Sproat wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and
> >> "research area".
> >> >> An
> >> >> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
> >> >
> >> > There is an academic type
> >> >
> >> 
> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/educat
> >> i
> >> > on but it doesn't have a property for research area. ?I 
> reckon it 
> >> > would be a useful property, expecting a field of study. ?
> (and also 
> >> > having a reciprocated property for "academics in this 
> field" on the 
> >> > field of study type).
> >>
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> K.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kirrily Robert
> >> Freebase Community Director
> >> kirrily at metaweb.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Data-modeling mailing list
> >> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> >> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  2 19:21:43 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:21:43 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911021102i566f8686x58dc1c0b0f6d0d5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911011844ka1a9c80vf63118deaf32db20@mail.gmail.com>
	<3DB6537E-9190-44B1-AF3F-0847D74A654E@metaweb.com>
	<FD03B2F2A3F84B4BBF93C909CC99983C@p4>
	<f70332fb0911021102i566f8686x58dc1c0b0f6d0d5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49522350-CFAA-4BB0-A45A-2DB0554E323B@metaweb.com>

I'd think so.  It would seem odd not to have Einstein listed under  
Physics just because he was dead.

K.

On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Iain Sproat wrote:

> A question about usage - would dead and retired academics remain
> linked to their former field of study?
>
> Iain
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com>  
> wrote:
>> Great idea. I'll go add the properties now.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Kirrily Robert
>>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 10:01 AM
>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>>
>>> On 01/11/2009, at 6:44 PM, Iain Sproat wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and
>>> "research area".
>>>>> An
>>>>> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
>>>>
>>>> There is an academic type
>>>>
>>> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic?domain=/educati
>>>> on but it doesn't have a property for research area.  I reckon it
>>>> would be a useful property, expecting a field of study.  (and also
>>>> having a reciprocated property for "academics in this field" on the
>>>> field of study type).
>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> K.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kirrily Robert
>>> Freebase Community Director
>>> kirrily at metaweb.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





From iainsproat at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 19:33:47 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:33:47 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Roud Folk Song Index
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911021133n1886ab85m3086be327533e4ed@mail.gmail.com>

I stumbled across the Roud Folk Song Index on wikipedia -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roud_Folk_Song_Index

A database of folk songs and traditional ballads would be great on
Freebase, and I've started a Folk song base
http://www.freebase.com/view/base/folkmusic/folk_song?domain=/base/folkmusic
 Please feel free to contribute.

Does anyone know anything about the database behind the Roud Index? -
I've googled it but I'm unable to find out if the database is open
source or if it's even available as a downloadable file.  I did find a
searchable online access to it
http://library.efdss.org/cgi-bin/textpage.cgi?file=aboutRoud

Iain

From al at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 18:09:25 2009
From: al at metaweb.com (Alexander Marks)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:09:25 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
Message-ID: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>

I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from  
Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term  
dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US  
congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,  
but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let  
me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week  
or so.

Al


From philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk  Tue Nov  3 18:27:56 2009
From: philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk (Philip Kendall)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:27:56 +0000
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <20091103182756.GM31466@sphinx.int.mythic-beasts.com>

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:09:25AM -0800, Alexander Marks wrote:
> I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from  
> Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term  
> dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US  
> congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,  
> but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let  
> me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week  
> or so.

Instant UK comment:

A lot of politicans are already marked as being being part of the
House of Commons; this load has marked people as being part of the
UK Parliament, duplicating exisiting data (although sometimes with
extended dates). Some examples:

* /en/andrew_lansley
* /en/david_howarth
* /en/john_redwood

Cheers,

Phil

-- 
  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/

From al at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 18:38:51 2009
From: al at metaweb.com (Alexander Marks)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:38:51 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <20091103182756.GM31466@sphinx.int.mythic-beasts.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
	<20091103182756.GM31466@sphinx.int.mythic-beasts.com>
Message-ID: <811DE89F-E6E9-43FD-A16F-A40183C94E41@metaweb.com>

Oh right -- I guess I should be using House of Commons instead of UK  
Parliament as the governmental body for MPs. I'll fix that.

Al

On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Philip Kendall wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:09:25AM -0800, Alexander Marks wrote:
>> I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from
>> Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term
>> dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US
>> congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,
>> but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let
>> me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week
>> or so.
>
> Instant UK comment:
>
> A lot of politicans are already marked as being being part of the
> House of Commons; this load has marked people as being part of the
> UK Parliament, duplicating exisiting data (although sometimes with
> extended dates). Some examples:
>
> * /en/andrew_lansley
> * /en/david_howarth
> * /en/john_redwood
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil
>
> -- 
>  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
>  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From kevin.l.neff at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:52:32 2009
From: kevin.l.neff at gmail.com (Kevin Neff)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:52:32 -0600
Subject: [Data-modeling] Authors of Journal Articles as topics with type
	Person
Message-ID: <da0081770911031052l23f47445u4e5b51f1541b581b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm working on importing several hundred journal articles.  I guess I should
create topics for each author of type Person.  However, PubMed only stores
the last name and initials of authors.  I may be able to establish
uniqueness using the institution that the author is affiliated with.  Even
that may be a long shot because the articles span 30 years and it likely
that most researchers will publish with several affiliations.  Any thoughts
on how to import these articles without making it too much of a chore?

KLN
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From gordon at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 18:58:45 2009
From: gordon at metaweb.com (Gordon Mackenzie)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:58:45 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Co-Founder, President,
	and CEO: Shouldn't these be three positions instead of a single
	topic?
Message-ID: <92961DB3-4C9D-4287-A368-913D42CDF945@metaweb.com>

Or is it a common enough title for business? Seems like this is  
uncommon except maybe for really small startups.

http://www.freebase.com/edit/topic/en/co_founder_president_and_ceo


~ Gordon

<<< gordon at metaweb.com >>>




From tfmorris at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:59:15 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:59:15 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911031059m7cdb9bbfgf4fdadd2d6145d38@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:

> Let me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week or so.

Sam Adams has had his Lieutenant Governorship converted to a Governorship
http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/samuel_adams

The NH Governors timeline looks noticeably sparse.
http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/tfmorris/default_domain/views/nh_governors_timeline

For example, Steve Merrill looks like he's got the appropriate infobox
on Wikipedia
http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/steve_merrill

Tom

From Bida.John at mayo.edu  Tue Nov  3 19:12:31 2009
From: Bida.John at mayo.edu (John Bida)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:12:31 -0600
Subject: [Data-modeling] Authors of Journal Articles as topics with type
	Person
In-Reply-To: <da0081770911031052l23f47445u4e5b51f1541b581b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <da0081770911031052l23f47445u4e5b51f1541b581b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <521B586D-41D9-4D66-910C-7C8C7F950D0D@mayo.edu>

You could use the tool at  http://128.248.65.210/cgi-bin/ 
arrowsmith_uic/author_rank.cgi to create a unique id for an author  
from the last name, initials,  and pubmed_id.

~Jp





On Nov 3, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Kevin Neff wrote:

>
> I'm working on importing several hundred journal articles.  I guess  
> I should create topics for each author of type Person.  However,  
> PubMed only stores the last name and initials of authors.  I may be  
> able to establish uniqueness using the institution that the author  
> is affiliated with.  Even that may be a long shot because the  
> articles span 30 years and it likely that most researchers will  
> publish with several affiliations.  Any thoughts on how to import  
> these articles without making it too much of a chore?
>
> KLN
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 19:19:02 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:19:02 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Co-Founder, President,
	and CEO: Shouldn't these be three positions instead of a single
	topic?
In-Reply-To: <92961DB3-4C9D-4287-A368-913D42CDF945@metaweb.com>
References: <92961DB3-4C9D-4287-A368-913D42CDF945@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <2957B8DA-6B70-449C-B874-6F6B6344C91C@metaweb.com>

This should definitely be three separate titles.  I'm sure evening  
could bend your ear about it at great length ;)

K.

On 03/11/2009, at 10:58 AM, Gordon Mackenzie wrote:

> Or is it a common enough title for business? Seems like this is
> uncommon except maybe for really small startups.
>
> http://www.freebase.com/edit/topic/en/co_founder_president_and_ceo
>
>
> ~ Gordon
>
> <<< gordon at metaweb.com >>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From jack.alves at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:59:35 2009
From: jack.alves at gmail.com (Jack Alves)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:59:35 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>

Great I see the new property on
education/academic<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic>for
research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
education/academic_post<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20>
.

I'm about to model schema in freebase for the Bibliographic Knowledge
Network <http://www.bibkn.org/drupal/> (BKN) project. I know several of you
are familiar with this project from last year when Metaweb contributed to
the NSF grant proposal. Now the project has a draft specification for what
they call "BibJSON <http://www.bibkn.org/drupal/bibjson/index.html>" to
represent and enhance the BibTeX data model, and at least 200,000 records
they want to import into freebase sometime soon. I want to have a discussion
about this project with someone at metaweb and anyone on this list who is
interested. I am happy to use this list for specific discussions threads
related to use of freebase. We should also have a conversation by phone or
in person.


Jack
510 524-2708

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com> wrote:
It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and "research area". An
example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
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From kirrily at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 22:38:27 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:38:27 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>

On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:

> Great I see the new property on education/academic for research  
> area. Seems like "Department" could be added to education/ 
> academic_post.

I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ 
  for things matching "^University of" and noted that a lot of them  
were departments, and I wasn't sure how to type them.

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/




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From jeff at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 22:56:38 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:56:38 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>

A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was just
thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that I didn't think
Academic was a good place to link it, but now that I think about it, I don't
see any other option, since we'd presumably want to include professors, grad
students, post-docs, and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that
otherwise. (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for professors, but
professors are more likely to be employed by the university rather than its
departments, and on education for grad students, but that would just add
clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty


On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:


Great I see the new property on education/academic
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic>  for research area.
Seems like "Department" could be added to education/academic_post
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20> .


I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching "^University of" and
noted that a lot of them were departments, and I wasn't sure how to type
them.

K.



-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





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From spatial.db at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 23:06:19 2009
From: spatial.db at gmail.com (Ed Laurent)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:06:19 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b233947a0911031506j557551a0le6d7ddfc728396c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jack,

I'm extremely interested in this discussion. In fact, the potential for
bibliographic import/export with the descriptive and search capabilities of
Freebase is the primary reason why I started contributing here, including
contributions to many of the Publishing commons schema (e.g., Journal
article <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/book/journal_article> and its
included types) and those in my LitCentral
base<http://litcentral.freebase.com/>(e.g., Named
person <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/base/litcentral/named_person>).
Great timing because after nearly two years I was losing hope that this
would ever be a priority for anyone else. Please feel free to contact me off
list to discuss ways that I can help out.

-Ed


On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com> wrote:

> Great I see the new property on education/academic<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic>for research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
> education/academic_post<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20>
> .
>
> I'm about to model schema in freebase for the Bibliographic Knowledge
> Network <http://www.bibkn.org/drupal/> (BKN) project. I know several of
> you are familiar with this project from last year when Metaweb contributed
> to the NSF grant proposal. Now the project has a draft specification for
> what they call "BibJSON <http://www.bibkn.org/drupal/bibjson/index.html>"
> to represent and enhance the BibTeX data model, and at least 200,000 records
> they want to import into freebase sometime soon. I want to have a discussion
> about this project with someone at metaweb and anyone on this list who is
> interested. I am happy to use this list for specific discussions threads
> related to use of freebase. We should also have a conversation by phone or
> in person.
>
>
> Jack
> 510 524-2708
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Jack Alves <jack.alves at gmail.com> wrote:
> It isn't clear what I can use for "department" and "research area". An
> example of data I have for a professor's research area is,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
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From kirrily at metaweb.com  Tue Nov  3 23:09:18 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:09:18 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
Message-ID: <F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>

Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and "schools" in the  
sense of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law School/etc.

K.

On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:

> A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was  
> just thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that I  
> didn't think Academic was a good place to link it, but now that I  
> think about it, I don't see any other option, since we'd presumably  
> want to include professors, grad students, post-docs, and whatnot,  
> and there's no easy way to do that otherwise. (Alternatives would be  
> on the employment CVT for professors, but professors are more likely  
> to be employed by the university rather than its departments, and on  
> education for grad students, but that would just add clutter.) So  
> Academic it is. I'll go ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
>
> Jeff
>
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> ] On Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:
>
>> Great I see the new property on education/academic for research  
>> area. Seems like "Department" could be added to education/ 
>> academic_post.
>
> I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ 
>  for things matching "^University of" and noted that a lot of them  
> were departments, and I wasn't sure how to type them.
>
> K.
>
> -- 
> Kirrily Robert
> Freebase Community Director
> kirrily at metaweb.com
> http://freebase.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/




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From al at metaweb.com  Wed Nov  4 00:19:43 2009
From: al at metaweb.com (Alexander Marks)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:19:43 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911031059m7cdb9bbfgf4fdadd2d6145d38@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911031059m7cdb9bbfgf4fdadd2d6145d38@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EEF02402-234D-4308-982F-0A4803476955@metaweb.com>

Oh -- thanks for noticing that Tom. In fact, Steve Merrill's  
governorship was there, I had just forgotten to add types to those  
people that weren't politicians yet, so it wasn't showing up:
http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/en/steve_merrill

I'll add all the remaining politician types shortly.

As for Sam Adams, notice that the link to "Lieutenant Governor of  
Massachusetts" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams actually  
takes you to "Governor of Massachusetts", so that's what my extractor  
found. Not sure what to do about that -- I can have a special rule for  
noticing "Lieutenant Governor" but... not sure. Any thoughts?

Al

On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Tom Morris wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Let me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a  
>> week or so.
>
> Sam Adams has had his Lieutenant Governorship converted to a  
> Governorship
> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/samuel_adams
>
> The NH Governors timeline looks noticeably sparse.
> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/tfmorris/default_domain/views/nh_governors_timeline
>
> For example, Steve Merrill looks like he's got the appropriate infobox
> on Wikipedia
> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/steve_merrill
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From tfmorris at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 01:13:23 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:13:23 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <EEF02402-234D-4308-982F-0A4803476955@metaweb.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911031059m7cdb9bbfgf4fdadd2d6145d38@mail.gmail.com>
	<EEF02402-234D-4308-982F-0A4803476955@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911031713t7f85048em97c270c5d597b58c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:
> Oh -- thanks for noticing that Tom. In fact, Steve Merrill's governorship
> was there, I had just forgotten to add types to those people that weren't
> politicians yet, so it wasn't showing up:
> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/en/steve_merrill
>
> I'll add all the remaining politician types shortly.

Great.  That'll probably make a significant difference in apparent
results for places like NH with weak coverage.

>
> As for Sam Adams, notice that the link to "Lieutenant Governor of
> Massachusetts" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams actually takes
> you to "Governor of Massachusetts", so that's what my extractor found. Not
> sure what to do about that -- I can have a special rule for noticing
> "Lieutenant Governor" but... not sure. Any thoughts?

That's just bad data.  I'd ignore it unless your program is
sophisticated enough to know which positions should be unique and
check for this uniqueness constraint being violated.  I fixed
Wikipedia, so it'll percolate through eventually.

Tom

> On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Tom Morris wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Let me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week
>>> or so.
>>
>> Sam Adams has had his Lieutenant Governorship converted to a Governorship
>> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/samuel_adams
>>
>> The NH Governors timeline looks noticeably sparse.
>>
>> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/tfmorris/default_domain/views/nh_governors_timeline
>>
>> For example, Steve Merrill looks like he's got the appropriate infobox
>> on Wikipedia
>> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/edit/topic/en/steve_merrill
>>
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 05:54:51 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:54:51 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>

> Great I see the new property on education/academic for research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
> education/academic_post.

+1

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:09 AM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and "schools" in the sense
> of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law School/etc.

Is there a way to model multi-campus institutes? e.g. University of
Glasgow has three campi
http://www.gla.ac.uk/about/locationmapsandtravel/
Perhaps a new type, educational campus, and a new property on
educational institute?

And also franchised universities e.g. Sorbonne, Abu Dhabi
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/paris_sorbonne_university_abu_dhabi
Is there a franchise schema?

Iain

From tfmorris at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 18:05:25 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:05:25 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911041005j391a7f64lef063b9706cde3b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:
> I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from
> Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term
> dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US
> congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,
> but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let
> me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week
> or so.

It doesn't look like you're picking up Irish TDs (Teachta? D?la), at
least as far as I could tell from spot checking a few.  For example,
Bertie Ahern is missing his TD role.

http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/en/bertie_ahern/-/government/politician/government_positions_held

Also, if you look at the above, you'll see that there seems to be an
issue with updating existing CVTs instead of creating new ones.  He
previously had an open ended CVT for Taoiseach because he was still
the incumbent.  That should have just gained an end date instead of
creating a new CVT.

Tom

From tfmorris at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 18:58:21 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:58:21 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911041005j391a7f64lef063b9706cde3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911041005j391a7f64lef063b9706cde3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911041058s66766c8ev79459c6d3091aba5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Tom Morris <tfmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:
>> I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from
>> Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term
>> dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US
>> congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,
>> but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let
>> me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week
>> or so.
>
> It doesn't look like you're picking up Irish TDs (Teachta? D?la), at
> least as far as I could tell from spot checking a few.

TD http://www.freebase.com/edit/topic/en/teachta_dala wasn't tagged
with Government Office or Role.  I've done that now.  (I guess
everything really *is* driven by the data).

I don't see any obvious categories that could be used to mine
additional roles from Wikipedia automatically, but a review of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Legislators might reveal some
other misses (although TDs aren't included there).

Tom

From jeff at metaweb.com  Wed Nov  4 23:53:14 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:53:14 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>

"University of Wherever School of Whatever" is actually a subsidiary
institution.  The difference between a department and a school at this level
may be somewhat fuzzy, I suppose, but if the two share an identity, it may
not be necessary to even call the school a department, since all relevant
data (institution, academics) is already stored on the institution type.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:09 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty


Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and "schools" in the sense
of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law School/etc.

K.

On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:


A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was just
thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that I didn't think
Academic was a good place to link it, but now that I think about it, I don't
see any other option, since we'd presumably want to include professors, grad
students, post-docs, and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that
otherwise. (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for professors, but
professors are more likely to be employed by the university rather than its
departments, and on education for grad students, but that would just add
clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty


On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:


Great I see the new property on education/academic
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic>  for research area.
Seems like "Department" could be added to education/academic_post
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20> .


I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching "^University of" and
noted that a lot of them were departments, and I wasn't sure how to type
them.

K.



-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





_______________________________________________
Data-modeling mailing list
Data-modeling at freebase.com
http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling





-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





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From jeff at metaweb.com  Wed Nov  4 23:58:58 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:58:58 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
Message-ID: <1255BCE7FCDB4826ABD3343BF0C72A17@amd>

One last question before adding anything: should the Department property be
linked to College/University or to Educational Institution?  The way we've
been talking about it suggests College/University, since academics are not
going to be posted to primary schools.  On the other hand, some secondary
schools do have departments, although for the most part they're probably
less formal than the collegiate ones.
 
So unless anyone has any cogent arguments otherwise, I'll add it to
College/University.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty


A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was just
thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that I didn't think
Academic was a good place to link it, but now that I think about it, I don't
see any other option, since we'd presumably want to include professors, grad
students, post-docs, and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that
otherwise. (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for professors, but
professors are more likely to be employed by the university rather than its
departments, and on education for grad students, but that would just add
clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty


On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:


Great I see the new property on education/academic
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic>  for research area.
Seems like "Department" could be added to education/academic_post
<http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20> .


I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching "^University of" and
noted that a lot of them were departments, and I wasn't sure how to type
them.

K.



-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





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From luke.schubert at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 00:03:50 2009
From: luke.schubert at gmail.com (Luke Schubert)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:33:50 +1030
Subject: [Data-modeling] 18K politician positions
In-Reply-To: <811DE89F-E6E9-43FD-A16F-A40183C94E41@metaweb.com>
References: <56F315D2-4877-4FA6-9D06-04C92021D3BB@metaweb.com>
	<20091103182756.GM31466@sphinx.int.mythic-beasts.com>
	<811DE89F-E6E9-43FD-A16F-A40183C94E41@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5bfe53e0911041603s5beca768yb962b6ee8ea2f070@mail.gmail.com>

Similarly Australian politicians should be marked as being part of the
"Australian House of Representatives" rather than the "Parliament of
Australia", and have a title of "Member of the Australian Parliament" rather
than "Member of Parliament" - see e.g. the different CVTs of Brendan Nelson
http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/en/brendan_nelson

>From the help topic on entering information about elected officials
http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f800000000739446b
"Please note that the title should be specific to the body or location
governed, as in the examples above (*United States *Senator, Prime Minister
*of the United Kingdom*). This is because each title is tied to a specific
jurisdiction. If every country that has a position of ?prime minister? used
the same topic, there would be no way to know which person was prime
minister of which country."

As Philip and Tom said, this load may duplicate existing data.

Are there any Australian senators loaded as part of this data?  (I notice
that their Wikipedia Infobox doesn't have a lot of clues in it - e.g. Bob
Brown's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Brown just says "Senator for
Tasmania".)

Luke.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Alexander Marks <al at metaweb.com> wrote:

> Oh right -- I guess I should be using House of Commons instead of UK
> Parliament as the governmental body for MPs. I'll fix that.
>
> Al
>
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Philip Kendall wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:09:25AM -0800, Alexander Marks wrote:
> >> I've loaded 18,000 politician positions to Sandbox extracted from
> >> Wikipedia's "Infobox officeholder" with offices, districts, and term
> >> dates when available. The best coverage is of US senators, US
> >> congressmen, US state senators, US state representatives, and UK MPs,
> >> but there's also coverage of all sorts of international offices. Let
> >> me know how it looks for your area, and I'll run it on OTG in a week
> >> or so.
> >
> > Instant UK comment:
> >
> > A lot of politicans are already marked as being being part of the
> > House of Commons; this load has marked people as being part of the
> > UK Parliament, duplicating exisiting data (although sometimes with
> > extended dates). Some examples:
> >
> > * /en/andrew_lansley
> > * /en/david_howarth
> > * /en/john_redwood
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > --
> >  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
> >  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From jeff at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 00:06:48 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:06:48 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema to
	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>

 
> 
> Is there a way to model multi-campus institutes? e.g. 
> University of Glasgow has three campi 
> http://www.gla.ac.uk/about/locationmapsandtravel/
> Perhaps a new type, educational campus, and a new property on 
> educational institute?

I like this. "Campus" would be typed as Location (Is-A), and could therefore
contain buildings and whatnot (as well as have geodata and shapefiles). This
would resolve the question "is an educational institution a location?".  The
weirdness is, however, that for single-campus institutions, we'd still be
asking for a "campuses" property to hold the location info.

> And also franchised universities e.g. Sorbonne, Abu Dhabi 
> http://www.freebase.com/view/en/paris_sorbonne_university_abu_dhabi
> Is there a franchise schema?

There is not. How would this relate to a university system like the
University of California?  (Something else which lacks a type.)

Jeff

> Iain
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From faye at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 00:10:10 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:10:10 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>
Message-ID: <4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>

Well, I will submit to the claim that the difference between a 
department and a school may be fuzzy if that school has only one 
department. If it has multiple, then after you model that school as a 
department, what do you use to model its departments?

-- Faye


Jeff Prucher wrote:
> "University of Wherever School of Whatever" is actually a subsidiary 
> institution.  The difference between a department and a school at this 
> level may be somewhat fuzzy, I suppose, but if the two share an 
> identity, it may not be necessary to even call the school a 
> department, since all relevant data (institution, academics) is 
> already stored on the institution type.
>  
> Jeff
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>     [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Kirrily
>     Robert
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:09 PM
>     *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
>     *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>
>     Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and "schools" in
>     the sense of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law
>     School/etc.
>
>     K.
>
>     On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>
>>     A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was
>>     just thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that
>>     I didn't think Academic was a good place to link it, but now that
>>     I think about it, I don't see any other option, since we'd
>>     presumably want to include professors, grad students, post-docs,
>>     and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that otherwise.
>>     (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for professors, but
>>     professors are more likely to be employed by the university
>>     rather than its departments, and on education for grad students,
>>     but that would just add clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go
>>     ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
>>      
>>     Jeff
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>         [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of
>>         *Kirrily Robert
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
>>         *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>         *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>
>>         On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:
>>
>>>         Great I see the new property on education/academic
>>>         <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic> for
>>>         research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
>>>         education/academic_post
>>>         <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20>.
>>
>>         I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
>>         http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching
>>         "^University of" and noted that a lot of them were
>>         departments, and I wasn't sure how to type them.
>>
>>         K.
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Kirrily Robert
>>         Freebase Community Director
>>         kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>>         http://freebase.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Data-modeling mailing list
>>     Data-modeling at freebase.com <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
>>     http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>     -- 
>     Kirrily Robert
>     Freebase Community Director
>     kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>     http://freebase.com/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>   


From jeff at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 00:24:32 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:24:32 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>
	<4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <64092A6CDA8D4A1FA4BA0BAB2541AAF8@amd>

Simple: you don't model a school as a department. What I meant below was
that if (for example) it is impossible to draw a distinction between the
Yale School of Drama (YSD) (a subsidiary institution of Yale) and the Yale
Department of Drama, then you don't really have to use the department type
at all, since all the relevant data is on the institution type.*  If, on the
other hand, YSD has several departments, they would all be linked to YSD,
which would be an institution only.

Another thing I just noticed is that the "institution" property of a
Department type shouldn't be unique:
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/university_of_washington_department_of_globa
l_health

Jeff 

*This argument is somewhat suspect semantically, I believe; arguably it
should be typed as both. This would be redundant and perhaps weird looking
in the client, but not wrong.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Faye Harris
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:10 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
> Well, I will submit to the claim that the difference between 
> a department and a school may be fuzzy if that school has 
> only one department. If it has multiple, then after you model 
> that school as a department, what do you use to model its departments?
> 
> -- Faye
> 
> 
> Jeff Prucher wrote:
> > "University of Wherever School of Whatever" is actually a 
> subsidiary 
> > institution.  The difference between a department and a 
> school at this 
> > level may be somewhat fuzzy, I suppose, but if the two share an 
> > identity, it may not be necessary to even call the school a 
> > department, since all relevant data (institution, academics) is 
> > already stored on the institution type.
> >  
> > Jeff
> >
> >     
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >     *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> >     [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf 
> Of *Kirrily
> >     Robert
> >     *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:09 PM
> >     *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
> >     *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> >
> >     Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and 
> "schools" in
> >     the sense of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law
> >     School/etc.
> >
> >     K.
> >
> >     On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
> >
> >>     A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly 
> enough, I was
> >>     just thinking about this the other day).  I was going 
> to say that
> >>     I didn't think Academic was a good place to link it, 
> but now that
> >>     I think about it, I don't see any other option, since we'd
> >>     presumably want to include professors, grad students, 
> post-docs,
> >>     and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that otherwise.
> >>     (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for 
> professors, but
> >>     professors are more likely to be employed by the university
> >>     rather than its departments, and on education for grad 
> students,
> >>     but that would just add clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go
> >>     ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
> >>      
> >>     Jeff
> >>
> >>         
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >>         *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> >>         [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of
> >>         *Kirrily Robert
> >>         *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
> >>         *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
> >>         *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> >>
> >>         On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:
> >>
> >>>         Great I see the new property on education/academic
> >>>         
> <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic> for
> >>>         research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
> >>>         education/academic_post
> >>>         
> <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20>.
> >>
> >>         I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
> >>         http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching
> >>         "^University of" and noted that a lot of them were
> >>         departments, and I wasn't sure how to type them.
> >>
> >>         K.
> >>
> >>         -- 
> >>         Kirrily Robert
> >>         Freebase Community Director
> >>         kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
> >>         http://freebase.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     Data-modeling mailing list
> >>     Data-modeling at freebase.com <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
> >>     http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> >     -- 
> >     Kirrily Robert
> >     Freebase Community Director
> >     kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
> >     http://freebase.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 00:33:28 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:33:28 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>
	<4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com>

*nodnod* ... just looking at a couple of Australian universities:

http://monash.edu.au/faculties/ seems to have "Faculty" as the first  
level under "university", and then "schools and departments" under that.

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/az/faculties.html seems to treat Schools and  
Departments as equals on the first level.

http://www.usyd.edu.au/about/faculties_schools.shtml is really  
complicated... it seems to have "Faculties and schools" as the first  
level, and then on the second level I see "school", "discipline",  
"institute", and "centre".

Note that AFAIK anyone who worked for any of these would probably  
still be an employee of the University of Whatever, rather than for  
any subsidiary body.

Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny pattern and  
allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.

K.

On Nov 4, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Faye Harris wrote:

> Well, I will submit to the claim that the difference between a
> department and a school may be fuzzy if that school has only one
> department. If it has multiple, then after you model that school as a
> department, what do you use to model its departments?
>
> -- Faye
>
>
> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> "University of Wherever School of Whatever" is actually a subsidiary
>> institution.  The difference between a department and a school at  
>> this
>> level may be somewhat fuzzy, I suppose, but if the two share an
>> identity, it may not be necessary to even call the school a
>> department, since all relevant data (institution, academics) is
>> already stored on the institution type.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>     
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>    [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Kirrily
>>    Robert
>>    *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:09 PM
>>    *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>    *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>
>>    Just a note to make sure it encompasses faculties and "schools" in
>>    the sense of eg. University of Wherever School of Management/Law
>>    School/etc.
>>
>>    K.
>>
>>    On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>>
>>>    A type for departments is definitely needed (oddly enough, I was
>>>    just thinking about this the other day).  I was going to say that
>>>    I didn't think Academic was a good place to link it, but now that
>>>    I think about it, I don't see any other option, since we'd
>>>    presumably want to include professors, grad students, post-docs,
>>>    and whatnot, and there's no easy way to do that otherwise.
>>>    (Alternatives would be on the employment CVT for professors, but
>>>    professors are more likely to be employed by the university
>>>    rather than its departments, and on education for grad students,
>>>    but that would just add clutter.) So Academic it is. I'll go
>>>    ahead and add it, probably tomorrow.
>>>
>>>    Jeff
>>>
>>>         
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>        *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>        [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>        *Kirrily Robert
>>>        *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:38 PM
>>>        *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>>        *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>>
>>>        On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Jack Alves wrote:
>>>
>>>>        Great I see the new property on education/academic
>>>>        <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic> for
>>>>        research area. Seems like "Department" could be added to
>>>>        education/academic_post
>>>>        <http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/academic_post%20 
>>>> >.
>>>
>>>        I'd be in favour of this.  I was looking through
>>>        http://untyped.freebaseapps.com/ for things matching
>>>        "^University of" and noted that a lot of them were
>>>        departments, and I wasn't sure how to type them.
>>>
>>>        K.
>>>
>>>        --
>>>        Kirrily Robert
>>>        Freebase Community Director
>>>        kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>>>        http://freebase.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    Data-modeling mailing list
>>>    Data-modeling at freebase.com <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
>>>    http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>    --
>>    Kirrily Robert
>>    Freebase Community Director
>>    kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>>    http://freebase.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





From faye at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 00:58:04 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:58:04 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema
 to	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>
Message-ID: <4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com>

While we're adding properties to College/University, how about 
programs/degrees offered? They can be linked to the shiny new 
departments property.

-- Faye


Jeff Prucher wrote:
>  
>   
>> Is there a way to model multi-campus institutes? e.g. 
>> University of Glasgow has three campi 
>> http://www.gla.ac.uk/about/locationmapsandtravel/
>> Perhaps a new type, educational campus, and a new property on 
>> educational institute?
>>     
>
> I like this. "Campus" would be typed as Location (Is-A), and could therefore
> contain buildings and whatnot (as well as have geodata and shapefiles). This
> would resolve the question "is an educational institution a location?".  The
> weirdness is, however, that for single-campus institutions, we'd still be
> asking for a "campuses" property to hold the location info.
>
>   
>> And also franchised universities e.g. Sorbonne, Abu Dhabi 
>> http://www.freebase.com/view/en/paris_sorbonne_university_abu_dhabi
>> Is there a franchise schema?
>>     
>
> There is not. How would this relate to a university system like the
> University of California?  (Something else which lacks a type.)
>
> Jeff
>
>   
>> Iain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>   


From iainsproat at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 12:49:16 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:49:16 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd> <4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com>
	<CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny pattern and
> allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.

Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern ("parent
institution" property and the "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
property).  If we need a new "departments" property on
college/university then I guess it should have this as a delegated
property.

Iain

From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 18:23:37 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:23:37 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
Message-ID: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>

Also posted to Business commons:

It would be good to capture local or alternative currencies. Should the
currency type be applied to those? Should a new type be created as well, or
alternatively? If yes, would it belong in Business commons or somewhere
else?

paul
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From jeff at metaweb.com  Thu Nov  5 18:29:24 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:29:24 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd>
	<4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com><CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Iain Sproat
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:49 AM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert 
> <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> > Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny pattern and 
> > allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.

Making the type explicitly for "faculties and departments", with a phylogeny
pattern, might work.  ("Faculty" in this sense is usually defined as a
"group of departments", FWIW.)

> Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern 
> ("parent institution" property and the 
> "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
> property).  If we need a new "departments" property on 
> college/university then I guess it should have this as a 
> delegated property.

Delegating would turn the departments into educational institutions, which
we don't want to do.

Jeff


From luke.schubert at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 22:54:23 2009
From: luke.schubert at gmail.com (Luke Schubert)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:24:23 +1030
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Paul,

So examples of these would be found on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Community_currencies, right?

In my opinion: these shouldn't have the currency type, since they're not
legal tender; they should have a new type; possibly, yes, it would belong in
the Business commons.  But I am not an economist.

Luke.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:

> Also posted to Business commons:
>
> It would be good to capture local or alternative currencies. Should the
> currency type be applied to those? Should a new type be created as well, or
> alternatively? If yes, would it belong in Business commons or somewhere
> else?
>
> paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 02:13:31 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:13:31 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Luke,

Exactly, that Wikipedia contains what I'm thinking of.

If the Currency type is intended to be only for legal tender the description
should reflect that key point. There is some overlap between them, so some
properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I guess
that is ok.

I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons initially, I
can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.

IIs it fair to assume that any type that applies to any general class of
things in the world could/should one day move into a commons? I guess there
are types that would never get put to a commons if they are highly
specialised.

paul

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Luke Schubert <luke.schubert at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> So examples of these would be found on
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Community_currencies, right?
>
> In my opinion: these shouldn't have the currency type, since they're not
> legal tender; they should have a new type; possibly, yes, it would belong in
> the Business commons.  But I am not an economist.
>
> Luke.
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also posted to Business commons:
>>
>> It would be good to capture local or alternative currencies. Should the
>> currency type be applied to those? Should a new type be created as well, or
>> alternatively? If yes, would it belong in Business commons or somewhere
>> else?
>>
>> paul
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 07:15:02 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Nightclub type
Message-ID: <be63e0470911052315i4fd072fdv4a0484ecad6cba8d@mail.gmail.com>

I could not find a type for nightclub - would this be a logical type to go
in the music commons? Is there any staging base for music types?

Something that showed the music genres played, what nights, the type of
club, etc would be quite cool. The semantic possibilities of querying "what
club can I dance trance at on a Thursday and still get a bus home" are just
jumping out ;-)

paul
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From iainsproat at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 13:30:56 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:30:56 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema to
	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911060530u5fb77863kfc2ca6993d718fd5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> "Campus" would be typed as Location (Is-A), and could therefore
> contain buildings and whatnot (as well as have geodata and shapefiles).

+1

> for single-campus institutions, we'd still be
> asking for a "campuses" property to hold the location info.

I think we should separate the campus of a single campus institution
out into a separate topic (would help in cases where an institution
moves location), but it is probably doing no damage if the campus and
the institution are the same topic (similar to award category and
award are the same topic in single category awards)

>> And also franchised universities
>> Is there a franchise schema?
>
> There is not. How would this relate to a university system like the
> University of California? ?(Something else which lacks a type.)

No real knowledge of how the University of California works but a
quick read of wikipedia suggests it is a multi-campus institution, but
these campuses are relatively autonomous.  I would think that each of
UC Berkeley, UC San Francisco etc. etc. are educational institutions,
linked to the University of California through the "parent
institution" property.  This is how the collegiate system of the
Oxford and Cambridge seems to have been modelled in Freebase.
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/university_of_oxford/-/education/educational_institution/subsidiary_or_constituent_schools

It does highlight a grey area between the definition of a franchise
compared to an autonomous campus of a parent institution.  Googling
for the definition of Franchise "an authorization to sell a company's
goods or services in a particular place".  Given this sort of
definition the University of California and the University of Oxford
would both seem to be franchise systems, although I'd wouldn't be
comfortable describing them as such.

Another institute with similar background to Paris-Sorbonne Abu Dhabi
is the Heriot-Watt University Dubai which is described as a campus of
Heriot-Watt.  So perhaps the term franchise isn't appropriate to
Paris-Sorbonne Abu Dhabi, and we can model all these as educational
institutions with a link through the "parent institution" property.

Iain

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 13:36:05 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:36:05 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema to
	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd> <4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911060536h5ea30dbbk425b6276f5eac33a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Faye Harris <faye at metaweb.com> wrote:
> While we're adding properties to College/University, how about
> programs/degrees offered? They can be linked to the shiny new
> departments property.

Nice idea - then someone could use Freebase to search for all
universities offering a certain course.  I assume this would be a CVT
linking college/university*, field of study and department?

*should this be educational institution, so institutes which aren't
college/universities can model courses offered?

Iain

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 14:24:31 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:24:31 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
> If the Currency type is intended to be only for legal tender the description
> should reflect that key point.

What about obsolete/historical currencies?  I'd think the Currency
type is applicable to them.  Could an admin of the Business commons
create a suitable description for this type?

> There is some overlap between them, so some
> properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I guess
> that is ok.
>
> I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons initially, I
> can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.

Yes, it's always best to try out a new idea in a base so you can fix
problems and make some big changes fairly easily.  Once a base has
some traction, useful properties and data we can think about making
it, or parts of it, a candidate for promotion to the relevant commons.

Iain

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 15:06:36 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:06:36 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Nightclub type
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911052315i4fd072fdv4a0484ecad6cba8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911052315i4fd072fdv4a0484ecad6cba8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911060706t46b11bf4md43961a50d4626c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
> I could not find a type for nightclub - would this be a logical type to go
> in the music commons? Is there any staging base for music types?

There is a Performance Venue type in the Music commons.
http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/music/performance_venue

At the moment you could find all nightclubs by searching for Buildings
which have in the building function property a value of Nightclub.

> Something that showed the music genres played, what nights, the type of
> club, etc would be quite cool.

A new type for Nightclub might be a good idea as there are a lot of
nightclub specific properties which could be modelled, in addition to
including the Performance Venue type.  My suggested properties would
be music genre, the resident DJs, the number of performance spaces
(rooms) and total capacity.  I've started a base
http://nightclubs.freebase.com

> The semantic possibilities of querying "what
> club can I dance trance at on a Thursday and still get a bus home" are just
> jumping out ;-)

Just need the data on buses and we're good!

Iain

From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 15:52:12 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:52:12 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911060752n54311c4ax8aeb0055c9e195a3@mail.gmail.com>

> What about obsolete/historical currencies?  I'd think the Currency
> type is applicable to them.  Could an admin of the Business commons
> create a suitable description for this type?
>

So are you saying that Currency should be kept more general, and could apply
to historical currencies and also local currencies?


>
> > There is some overlap between them, so some
> > properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I
> guess
> > that is ok.
> >
> > I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons
> initially, I
> > can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.
>
> Yes, it's always best to try out a new idea in a base so you can fix
> problems and make some big changes fairly easily.  Once a base has
> some traction, useful properties and data we can think about making
> it, or parts of it, a candidate for promotion to the relevant commons.
>

I assume its generally better to find a base, or create a new one, rather
than creating new types inside one's own profile, it they could be
candidates for promotion to the commons? Are there guidelines on this either
way?


>
> Iain
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From jason at metaweb.com  Fri Nov  6 18:07:34 2009
From: jason at metaweb.com (Jason Douglas)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:07:34 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Webpage Proposal (was: Use of "web links"
	property)
In-Reply-To: <B830F4F7-D2E0-4A07-9825-55B04FCA1EA9@metaweb.com>
References: <002101c809fb$c91113c0$67fa1eac@amd>	<b08e1490710081630w65ebdccete8e4ed07d1edceb7@mail.gmail.com><006901c80a0e$9d78aad0$67fa1eac@amd>	<470AE7DB.2040403@thefirst.org>	<000301c80a8c$211b0fe0$65fa1eac@amd>
	<C2E01618-064A-4E2C-AE02-B457B5942B48@cognity.de>
	<470BE75A.6010707@gmail.com>
	<B830F4F7-D2E0-4A07-9825-55B04FCA1EA9@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <754F16F2-B2D3-442E-B440-D3AE1F53C859@metaweb.com>

So there was some verbal consent in the community conference call last  
Monday and nobody's spoken up here, so barring any objections, we'll  
move forward with phase I:

	http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Webpage_Proposal#Phase_I:_Preparation

* Create new /common/resource and /common/annotation_category  types
* Add additional key to /common/webpage to become /common/annotation  
as well as new category and resource properties.
* Create initial set of proposed instances of /common/ 
annotation_category:
	* Topic Webpage
	* Official Website

-jason


On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:35 PM, Jason Douglas wrote:

> So when this thread popped up a few weeks back, we happened to be
> talking a lot internally at the same time about how lacking the
> current /common/topic/webpage model is relative to all the interesting
> use cases people people want to do.  Using Freebase to query content
> on the web seems like such a cool idea that we'd really like to see
> our schema be more up to the task.  After much discussion, here's the
> proposal we've come up with:
>
> 	http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Webpage_Proposal
>
> It's a little more complicated than today, but that seems necessary to
> accommodate the variety of use cases.  To compensate, we're also
> proposing a new approach for simplifying schema complexity in common
> use cases and for new developers, which is to use the up-coming MQL
> extensions feature.  MQL extensions are virtual properties implemented
> in code (including Acre!), but more info on that soon... I just wanted
> to mention the concept up-front since it's a key part of the proposal.
>
> -jason
>
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Shawn Simister wrote:
>
>> I agree with the idea of adding a "type of resource" to categorize
>> links. I think that this would make it easier for a lot of mashups.
>> For example, right now if I want to get all the MySpace pages for
>> music artists I could get the web links for each artist and then
>> filter out those links from the myspace.com domain. Similarly, I
>> could filter out all the links from wordpress.com, blogspot.com,
>> etc. to try to find a list of the artists blogs but I would never be
>> able to get all of them. With categories like "blog", "home page",
>> "social networking page" it would be a lot easier to do this sort of
>> thing.
>>
>> Shawn
>>
>> Christoph Pingel wrote:
>>> To spin that thread a little farther... I think web links deserve a
>>> little more attention than they are currently given.
>>>
>>> One of the reasons given for a semantic web (for humans) was that
>>> links in HTML usually don't make meaning explicit.
>>> A link (if there is not textual information available) can mean
>>> anything from "here's the source of truth about that topic" to
>>> "look how this other guy disagrees with me" to "maybe there's
>>> something interesting hidden in that snippet over there".
>>>
>>> So I think it would make good sense in a system like freebase to
>>> not waste what people know about the resource on the other end.
>>>
>>> A practical example: Some entities do have "home pages" (humans,
>>> cities, institutions, companies, products), so this is in itself a
>>> special kind of resource if linked to an entry for that entity in
>>> freebase.
>>>
>>> I worked a lot with artist's homepages, and I found that many
>>> artists have something analogous to a homepage for example on an
>>> art festival website or in some large online collection (wikipedia,
>>> artnet, manifesta, etc.). So perhaps it would be a good idea to
>>> have a richer compound value type for web links:
>>> - title
>>> - url
>>> - topic of the resource (e.g. a topic of type visual artist)
>>> [this is what we have right now, additionally:]
>>> - type of resource (home page, blog entry, video, news article
>>> about x, ... roughly speaking 'page category')
>>> - the institution / web site / 'collection', whatever the 'parent'
>>> of the page is.
>>>
>>> This way, it would be possible to request the URLs of pages that
>>> 'represent' Joseph Beuys as a person and artist in different
>>> contexts, and pages that are merely somehow 'about' him (to give an
>>> example).
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 09.10.2007 um 17:50 Uhr schrieb Jeff Prucher:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone who's weighed in on this -- it's nice to see so
>>>> much
>>>> agreement
>>>>
>>>> Jeff P
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
>>>>> Thompson
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 7:31 PM
>>>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Use of "web links" property
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>>>>>> Semantic meaning is pretty much the only reason. My question is
>>>>>> really, is there enough semantic meaning inherent in "related
>>>>>> websites" to merit its being a distinct property?  There are
>>>>>> definitely cases where that's true -- we have "IMDB Link"
>>>>> on films, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the web site is only going to be parsed for information by
>>>>> a human, then you only need a textual web link description to
>>>>> be parsed by a human.  If the web site potentially has
>>>>> information to be parsed by a machine (like IMDB) then it
>>>>> makes sense for the link to be separated out semantically, so
>>>>> the machine can find it.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of a book site, it's going to be text parsed by a
>>>>> human, so I'd say it doesn't warrant a separate property.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> // Christoph Pingel, MA ? Mediendesign & Semantische Technologien ?
>>> // Sch?tzenstr. 4 ? 76137 Karlsruhe ? 0721-9338884 ? www.christoph-pingel.de
>>> ? pingel at cognity.de
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 18:35:26 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:35:26 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911060752n54311c4ax8aeb0055c9e195a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911060752n54311c4ax8aeb0055c9e195a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911061035y510ff1cx5c08d8eac4bc2cd6@mail.gmail.com>

To reply to my own mail...

Would it make sense to add a boolean to Currency, "is legal tender"?

For historical currencies (and present ones) would properties defining

Date established
Date expired (dont like expired much, but something to say when it went out
of use).

make sense to also be added to Currency?

BTW, initially I find "Countries used" a confusing name - wouldn't
"Countries using' be clearer?

paul

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> What about obsolete/historical currencies?  I'd think the Currency
>> type is applicable to them.  Could an admin of the Business commons
>> create a suitable description for this type?
>>
>
> So are you saying that Currency should be kept more general, and could
> apply to historical currencies and also local currencies?
>
>
>>
>> > There is some overlap between them, so some
>> > properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I
>> guess
>> > that is ok.
>> >
>> > I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons
>> initially, I
>> > can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.
>>
>> Yes, it's always best to try out a new idea in a base so you can fix
>> problems and make some big changes fairly easily.  Once a base has
>> some traction, useful properties and data we can think about making
>> it, or parts of it, a candidate for promotion to the relevant commons.
>>
>
> I assume its generally better to find a base, or create a new one, rather
> than creating new types inside one's own profile, it they could be
> candidates for promotion to the commons? Are there guidelines on this either
> way?
>
>
>>
>> Iain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>
>
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From faye at metaweb.com  Fri Nov  6 19:09:11 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:09:11 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema
 to	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911060536h5ea30dbbk425b6276f5eac33a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd>
	<4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911060536h5ea30dbbk425b6276f5eac33a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF47457.4070400@metaweb.com>

Not so much modeling courses (which I'm interpreting to mean classes) or 
fields of study, but programs and degrees -- i.e. undergrad degree in 
Computer Science, masters in Economics, Ph.D. in Physics, etc. With 
courses, equivalent classes don't necessarily have the same name across 
different universities, and classes with the same name ("Chemistry 101") 
don't necessarily cover the same material. Fields of study are not 
specific enough for application consideration, that a university has a 
Journalism department (or school) doesn't mean it necessarily offers an 
undergrad degree there.

But yes, I was thinking of a CVT linking college/university, programs, 
and departments.

-- Faye


Iain Sproat wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Faye Harris <faye at metaweb.com> wrote:
>   
>> While we're adding properties to College/University, how about
>> programs/degrees offered? They can be linked to the shiny new
>> departments property.
>>     
>
> Nice idea - then someone could use Freebase to search for all
> universities offering a certain course.  I assume this would be a CVT
> linking college/university*, field of study and department?
>
> *should this be educational institution, so institutes which aren't
> college/universities can model courses offered?
>
> Iain
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>   


From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:04:10 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:04:10 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Community centres
Message-ID: <be63e0470911061204w25f3a35ap3f810472d1ee2283@mail.gmail.com>

A number are collated in this list
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/community_centre/-/architecture/building_function/buildingsbecause
they are defined as Buildings and filtered using Building function.
Should the building be separate from the entity that is the centre itself?
Or is it ok to define a Community centre type that could be applied to those
topics?

I have some ideas about what I want to create here, just wanted a
clarification...

cheers

paul
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From jeff at metaweb.com  Fri Nov  6 20:57:15 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:57:15 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema
	to	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <4AF47457.4070400@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>	<554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com>	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd><4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com><f70332fb0911060536h5ea30dbbk425b6276f5eac33a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AF47457.4070400@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <2E0E19949C054566904D9765A478FF97@p4>

Yes, I think that would be the way to model it. We could add from/to dates
as well, if we wanted, since offerings do change.

Jeff 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Faye Harris
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: 
> schema to represent faculty)
> 
> Not so much modeling courses (which I'm interpreting to mean 
> classes) or fields of study, but programs and degrees -- i.e. 
> undergrad degree in Computer Science, masters in Economics, 
> Ph.D. in Physics, etc. With courses, equivalent classes don't 
> necessarily have the same name across different universities, 
> and classes with the same name ("Chemistry 101") don't 
> necessarily cover the same material. Fields of study are not 
> specific enough for application consideration, that a 
> university has a Journalism department (or school) doesn't 
> mean it necessarily offers an undergrad degree there.
> 
> But yes, I was thinking of a CVT linking college/university, 
> programs, and departments.
> 
> -- Faye
> 
> 
> Iain Sproat wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Faye Harris 
> <faye at metaweb.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> While we're adding properties to College/University, how about 
> >> programs/degrees offered? They can be linked to the shiny new 
> >> departments property.
> >>     
> >
> > Nice idea - then someone could use Freebase to search for all 
> > universities offering a certain course.  I assume this 
> would be a CVT 
> > linking college/university*, field of study and department?
> >
> > *should this be educational institution, so institutes which aren't 
> > college/universities can model courses offered?
> >
> > Iain
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From tfmorris at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 21:40:21 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:40:21 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] More education types (was RE: schema to
	represent faculty)
In-Reply-To: <2E0E19949C054566904D9765A478FF97@p4>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com>
	<5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd>
	<F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911032154n68099a41gb50760e51a00e5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<D2C547AC451E411DA653C5B3697E7087@amd> <4AF2231C.3050100@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0911060536h5ea30dbbk425b6276f5eac33a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AF47457.4070400@metaweb.com> <2E0E19949C054566904D9765A478FF97@p4>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911061340q6d37dd51y111594e1bdf72d16@mail.gmail.com>

While you're at it, how about something to hold interdisciplinary
and/or multi-institution centers/labs/institutes?

An example I just pulled out of the delete queue is
http://www.freebase.com/edit/topic/en/centre_for_the_history_of_the_book,
which I made an academic institution for lack of a better choice, but
there are more complex examples.  The MIT Media Lab nominally belongs
to the architecture school, but it is involved in things like the
Center for Future Banking which is a joint venture with Bank of
America. http://www.media.mit.edu/research/centers-joint-programs
Examples involving both multiple educational institutions and
academic/industrial collaborations exist.

Tom

From jeff at metaweb.com  Fri Nov  6 22:07:09 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:07:09 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911061035y510ff1cx5c08d8eac4bc2cd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com><c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com><be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com><f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com><be63e0470911060752n54311c4ax8aeb0055c9e195a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911061035y510ff1cx5c08d8eac4bc2cd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CED7683B8FE14A4CA056E9115286B931@p4>

Adding dates to the relationship between country and currency is a good
idea. It will involve putting a CVT between the existing properties, which
is pretty breaky, but can be done.  I'm not sure about the boolean -- it
seems like a community currency needs its own type (for one thing, it
shouldn't connect to County, but to some new "Community with community
currency" type).
 
Jeff



  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mackay
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:35 AM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Local currencies


To reply to my own mail...

Would it make sense to add a boolean to Currency, "is legal tender"? 

For historical currencies (and present ones) would properties defining 

Date established
Date expired (dont like expired much, but something to say when it went out
of use).

make sense to also be added to Currency?

BTW, initially I find "Countries used" a confusing name - wouldn't
"Countries using' be clearer?

paul


On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:



What about obsolete/historical currencies?  I'd think the Currency
type is applicable to them.  Could an admin of the Business commons
create a suitable description for this type?



So are you saying that Currency should be kept more general, and could apply
to historical currencies and also local currencies?
 



> There is some overlap between them, so some
> properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I guess
> that is ok.
>
> I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons initially,
I
> can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.


Yes, it's always best to try out a new idea in a base so you can fix
problems and make some big changes fairly easily.  Once a base has
some traction, useful properties and data we can think about making
it, or parts of it, a candidate for promotion to the relevant commons.



I assume its generally better to find a base, or create a new one, rather
than creating new types inside one's own profile, it they could be
candidates for promotion to the commons? Are there guidelines on this either
way?
 



Iain

_______________________________________________
Data-modeling mailing list
Data-modeling at freebase.com
http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling




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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 23:17:25 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:17:25 -0700
Subject: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
In-Reply-To: <CED7683B8FE14A4CA056E9115286B931@p4>
References: <be63e0470911051023n12754c06j790069ef90b9a9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5bfe53e0911051454l1f642de9gb33991d92bd87326@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911051813j58bc0409pa350adeaba38911f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911060624m7f51798oa7571ce4cbc808ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911060752n54311c4ax8aeb0055c9e195a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<be63e0470911061035y510ff1cx5c08d8eac4bc2cd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<CED7683B8FE14A4CA056E9115286B931@p4>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911061517x50614559n97a6315a27a85b73@mail.gmail.com>

I had figured the Countries used could be set to just the country where the
place using the local currency is located, but I guess that is superfluous
really. However it could just be left blank.

Anyway, I'll try to model it separately for now.

paul

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:

>  Adding dates to the relationship between country and currency is a good
> idea. It will involve putting a CVT between the existing properties, which
> is pretty breaky, but can be done.  I'm not sure about the boolean -- it
> seems like a community currency needs its own type (for one thing, it
> shouldn't connect to County, but to some new "Community with community
> currency" type).
>
> Jeff
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com [mailto:
> data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Mackay
> *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 10:35 AM
> *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] Local currencies
>
> To reply to my own mail...
>
> Would it make sense to add a boolean to Currency, "is legal tender"?
>
> For historical currencies (and present ones) would properties defining
>
> Date established
> Date expired (dont like expired much, but something to say when it went out
> of use).
>
> make sense to also be added to Currency?
>
> BTW, initially I find "Countries used" a confusing name - wouldn't
> "Countries using' be clearer?
>
> paul
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>  What about obsolete/historical currencies?  I'd think the Currency
>>> type is applicable to them.  Could an admin of the Business commons
>>> create a suitable description for this type?
>>>
>>
>> So are you saying that Currency should be kept more general, and could
>> apply to historical currencies and also local currencies?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> > There is some overlap between them, so some
>>> > properties on Currency would have to be in Local currency too, but I
>>> guess
>>> > that is ok.
>>> >
>>> > I suppose the type would be created outside of Business commons
>>> initially, I
>>> > can't really see any other commons that would be more applicable.
>>>
>>> Yes, it's always best to try out a new idea in a base so you can fix
>>> problems and make some big changes fairly easily.  Once a base has
>>> some traction, useful properties and data we can think about making
>>> it, or parts of it, a candidate for promotion to the relevant commons.
>>>
>>
>> I assume its generally better to find a base, or create a new one, rather
>> than creating new types inside one's own profile, it they could be
>> candidates for promotion to the commons? Are there guidelines on this either
>> way?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Iain
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
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From jeff at metaweb.com  Sat Nov  7 00:47:04 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:47:04 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd><4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com><CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com><f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>
	<B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd>
Message-ID: <5702877271064F878043B56DFEEBBFEC@p4>

I've created the Department type, and linked it to College/University and
Academic, as well as given it a phylogeny pattern and dates:

http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/department

Let me know if I've missed anything.

Jeff 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:29 AM
> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> > [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Iain Sproat
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:49 AM
> > To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> > 
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert 
> <kirrily at metaweb.com> 
> > wrote:
> > > Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny 
> pattern and 
> > > allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.
> 
> Making the type explicitly for "faculties and departments", 
> with a phylogeny pattern, might work.  ("Faculty" in this 
> sense is usually defined as a "group of departments", FWIW.)
> 
> > Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern ("parent 
> > institution" property and the "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
> > property).  If we need a new "departments" property on 
> > college/university then I guess it should have this as a delegated 
> > property.
> 
> Delegating would turn the departments into educational 
> institutions, which we don't want to do.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From faye at metaweb.com  Sat Nov  7 01:10:22 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:10:22 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <5702877271064F878043B56DFEEBBFEC@p4>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd><4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com><CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com><f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>	<B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd>
	<5702877271064F878043B56DFEEBBFEC@p4>
Message-ID: <4AF4C8FE.10505@metaweb.com>

Cool!

Shouldn't "department of" be "subsidiary department of" to mirror the 
"subsidiary departments" property name? Otherwise looks good.

Will it be incorporated into the Education type, etc.?

-- Faye


Jeff Prucher wrote:
> I've created the Department type, and linked it to College/University and
> Academic, as well as given it a phylogeny pattern and dates:
>
> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/department
>
> Let me know if I've missed anything.
>
> Jeff 
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:29 AM
>> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>
>>  
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Iain Sproat
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:49 AM
>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert 
>>>       
>> <kirrily at metaweb.com> 
>>     
>>> wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny 
>>>>         
>> pattern and 
>>     
>>>> allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.
>>>>         
>> Making the type explicitly for "faculties and departments", 
>> with a phylogeny pattern, might work.  ("Faculty" in this 
>> sense is usually defined as a "group of departments", FWIW.)
>>
>>     
>>> Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern ("parent 
>>> institution" property and the "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
>>> property).  If we need a new "departments" property on 
>>> college/university then I guess it should have this as a delegated 
>>> property.
>>>       
>> Delegating would turn the departments into educational 
>> institutions, which we don't want to do.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>   


From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 03:24:39 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:24:39 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Storing the plural of a type
Message-ID: <be63e0470911081924g71a132bek87ebd9bf8f53fd4@mail.gmail.com>

Is there any way to store the plural text string for a type? I thinking of
generating content based on a list of types, where the plural of that type
might be a list title followed by topics that have that type.

paul
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From tfmorris at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 04:23:25 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:23:25 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Storing the plural of a type
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911081924g71a132bek87ebd9bf8f53fd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911081924g71a132bek87ebd9bf8f53fd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911082023q4d2816besf3d33d86e9617d7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any way to store the plural text string for a type? I thinking of
> generating content based on a list of types, where the plural of that type
> might be a list title followed by topics that have that type.

That's one of the test cases that David put together for his pluralizer app

http://d1.plural.dfhuynh.user.dev.freebaseapps.com/test_type_names

http://english-utilities.freebaseapps.com/pluralize?text=moose&text=salmon

Check the archives for Oct. 15 for the announcement.

Tom

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 10:26:05 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:26:05 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] additional expected types on delegated properties
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911090226q315467ecpe029ca6687b8f9e4@mail.gmail.com>

I've a couple of queries about editing schemas that I'd like to be
able to do in the client.  I may be missing something, but I couldn't
find the features I was looking for.  These are:

- Is it possible to give a default value to an included property (on
an included type)?

I'd like to be able to set the property automatically from the schema
editor.  e.g. When typing something as a /base/hotels/hotel, the
/architecture/building type is included.  I would like the
/architecture/building/building_function property to already be
entered as the topic /en/hotel.

- Is it possible to delegate a property and also expect a type?

For example, I'd like to be able to create a
/base/hotels/hotel/hotel_owner property and expect a new type of
/base/hotels/hotel_ownership (a time-mediated CVT).  As the hotel
owner is also the structure owner, I'd also like to delegate the
property to the /architecture/structure/owner property.  (might be
tricky with CVTs though)

Iain

From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  9 19:13:13 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:13:13 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] additional expected types on delegated
	properties
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911090226q315467ecpe029ca6687b8f9e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0911090226q315467ecpe029ca6687b8f9e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20D7E399407F4D62999B9BD80FDD168A@p4>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Iain Sproat
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:26 AM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: [Data-modeling] additional expected types on 
> delegated properties
> 
> I've a couple of queries about editing schemas that I'd like 
> to be able to do in the client.  I may be missing something, 
> but I couldn't find the features I was looking for.  These are:
> 
> - Is it possible to give a default value to an included 
> property (on an included type)?

> I'd like to be able to set the property automatically from 
> the schema editor.  e.g. When typing something as a 
> /base/hotels/hotel, the /architecture/building type is 
> included.  I would like the 
> /architecture/building/building_function property to already 
> be entered as the topic /en/hotel.

No.  You'd need to set up a gardening app to do that.

> - Is it possible to delegate a property and also expect a type?
> 
> For example, I'd like to be able to create a 
> /base/hotels/hotel/hotel_owner property and expect a new type 
> of /base/hotels/hotel_ownership (a time-mediated CVT).  As 
> the hotel owner is also the structure owner, I'd also like to 
> delegate the property to the /architecture/structure/owner 
> property.  (might be tricky with CVTs though)

Unfortunately, no. There's an open bug for this, though:
https://bugs.freebase.com/browse/CLI-5197.  (Although, as you say, CVTs
might still be tricky with this.)

Jeff

> Iain
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From spatial.db at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 19:10:45 2009
From: spatial.db at gmail.com (Ed Laurent)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:10:45 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] additional expected types on delegated
	properties
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911090226q315467ecpe029ca6687b8f9e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0911090226q315467ecpe029ca6687b8f9e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b233947a0911091110k5d450cy544a1c4ccc4f26f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Iain Sproat <iainsproat at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> - Is it possible to give a default value to an included property (on
> an included type)?
>


The only way I know to do this is through views. For example, see those
listed here: http://fbimport.freebase.com/
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From zenkat at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  9 19:29:07 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:29:07 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] [Freebase-experts] open library editions test
	load
In-Reply-To: <FDE31255-EAD3-4B5D-9730-CA972D038DE8@metaweb.com>
References: <1FB69464-A638-43DE-9A0C-F181D0D6C9A2@metaweb.com>
	<FC326432-3EFA-4946-9009-154C3DB20751@metaweb.com>
	<1A5B1864-7B59-4585-ABFB-2DCC22BEB28A@metaweb.com>
	<FDE31255-EAD3-4B5D-9730-CA972D038DE8@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <97E81B9E-10CF-4540-BE52-B79D76A2C767@metaweb.com>


Hello All --

The final round of QC on the Open Library Editions load has completed,  
and we started loading the ~2.2M passing editions into Freebase over  
the weekend.  The load contains just under 17M "triples", and at  
current load speeds will take just over a week (!) to complete.

The final round of QC uncovered one final (and subtle) correction.   
The month and day portions of the Open Library publication dates  
disagreed with the dates reported in other sources about 2% of the  
time.  This is below our quality threshold.  However, if we just take  
the year portion of the dates, we are accurate 99%+ of the time.   
Therefore, we only loaded the publication year.

Many thanks to everyone on the list who provided feedback and review  
of our earlier loads -- your efforts really helped set the bar in  
terms of data quality.  And, of course, many kudos to Vishal Talwar,  
the lead developer on the load, for bringing it all together and  
making it happen!

Brian


On Oct 27, 2009, at 9:54 PM, Brian Karlak wrote:

> Hello All --
>
> The third and final test load of Open Library Editions has been  
> completed.  This load consists of 100K /book/book_editions and  
> associated data for the Open Library titles we loaded over the  
> summer.  The editions can be found under attribution:
>
> 	http://www.freebase.com/tools/explore/user/book_bot/attr/32
>
> Because there are so many topics in this load, it's hard to page  
> through or query them all.  If you're interested in seeing a sample,  
> you may prefer the QA sampling view we've put together:
>
> 	http://book-edition-qa.vtalwar.user.dev.freebaseapps.com/queue?experts=1
>
> This load follows all of the rules previously discussed in this  
> thread, with one modification: no subtitle/title parsing is done on  
> the edition's title before it becomes the /type/object/name property  
> of the edition.  Otherwise, everything is the same.
>
> As always, your feedback is appreciated.  Please let us know if you  
> have any questions or comments.
>
> We'll start the complete load of ~1.2M editions as soon as we've  
> finished reviewing this final test load.
>
> Thanks!
> Brian
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2009, at 3:26 PM, Brian Karlak wrote:
>
>> Hello All --
>>
>> The second test load of 10K Open Library Editions has been  
>> completed.  This load implements the blacklists described in the  
>> original email below, along with other miscellaneous cleanup.
>>
>> For those of you who are interested in looking at the data, we've  
>> created a data game to help with paging through a random sample of  
>> the load:
>>
>> 	http://book-edition-qa.vtalwar.user.dev.freebaseapps.com/queue?experts=1
>>
>> When reviewing records, you may want to check:
>>
>> Did the edition attach to the correct book?
>> If the edition is marked as "existed", did we match the correct  
>> Freebase edition?
>> Is the edition data from Open Library correct, according to the LOC  
>> or Amazon?
>>
>> If you feel that any of the data is incorrect, you can click "No"  
>> to mark the record as suspect.  Notes on why you clicked "No" (or  
>> "Yes", for that matter) are most appreciated -- you can type them  
>> in the box under the buttons.  Of course, feel free to bring issues  
>> up for discussion on this list!
>>
>> Finally, please note that this load is only of edition information:  
>> we did not attempt to fix the /book/book and /book/author topics  
>> they are attach to.  This means that the known problems with the  
>> earlier Open Library loads (missing first word of titles,  
>> punctuation in author names, etc) are not addressed.  Once we have  
>> all of the editions, we'll work on this cleanup.
>>
>> As always, your feedback is appreciated!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>>
>> PS -- This load was run under attribution node http://www.freebase.com/tools/explore/user/book_bot/attr/31 
>>  if you want to query for the data.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 21, 2009, at 1:40 PM, Brian Karlak wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback on this test load -- it is definitely  
>>> appreciated!
>>>
>>> Based upon your feedback, we're going to make the following  
>>> changes to the load process:
>>>
>>> 1)  Create a blacklist of subjects.  Do not load editions for  
>>> matching OL entries, and mark the books for deletion:
>>>
>>> Computer Software Packages
>>> Gifts
>>> Novelty
>>> Blank Books/Journals
>>> Calendar[s] *
>>>
>>> 2) Create a blacklist of formats.  Again, do not load / mark for  
>>> delete:
>>>
>>> Calendar
>>> Stationary
>>>
>>> 3) Offline gardening task: Delete everything by "Pet Prints, Inc.".
>>>
>>> 4) Offline gardening task: delete trailing punctuation from Open  
>>> Library author names.
>>>
>>> Interesting, but probably not implementable in the next 10K load:
>>>
>>> 5) Search for books with >50% non-English words that are not  
>>> marked as being for a foreign language, delete from load.
>>>
>>> A test load of 10K editions should be coming down the pike  
>>> shortly.  We'll let you know before we start the load.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> On Sep 17, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Brian Karlak wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello All --
>>>>
>>>> We hinted a few weeks back that we're trying a new process for  
>>>> loading
>>>> massive data sets.  Instead of doing a single huge data load (and
>>>> letting everyone know about it afterwards :-), we're doing
>>>> incrementally larger loads, systematically QA'ing them, and  
>>>> notifying
>>>> the general Freebase community after each load so that we can get
>>>> feedback on potential problems.
>>>>
>>>> So ...
>>>>
>>>> We've just loaded the first test set of 144 OpenLibrary editions to
>>>> sandbox.  This test set came from sampling 1000 editions from the
>>>> entire OL corpus, and taking those that matched titles and authors
>>>> from books in our July OpenLibrary book load.  This is the first  
>>>> tiny
>>>> dribble of what we hope ill ultimately be a load of 2.5M editions.
>>>>
>>>> The ISBN nodes for these books can be found in the "Links Created"
>>>> section of this page:
>>>>
>>>> 	http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/tools/explore/user/book_bot/attr/27?limit=200
>>>>
>>>> (Yes, we know it's not the most beautiful display ... we're  
>>>> looking at
>>>> prettier ways of showing this.  However, once you click one of  
>>>> the /
>>>> soft/isbn/ keys, you'll be back in Freebase proper, on an ISBN  
>>>> node.
>>>> From this node, you can follow back to book edition, and then  
>>>> book.)
>>>>
>>>> Our initial QC of this load has already pointed out some areas for
>>>> improvement.  For instance, Open Library contains some non-book  
>>>> items
>>>> like blank journals, audio cassettes and art prints.  Future loads
>>>> will filter these out by creating a blacklist of forbidden subjects
>>>> and formats ("stationary", "audio cassette", "gift", etc.)  We'll  
>>>> also
>>>> probably end up deleting the books in these categories as well.
>>>>
>>>> Any feedback you might have is definitely appreciated!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Freebase-experts mailing list
>>>> Freebase-experts at freebase.com
>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/freebase-experts
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Freebase-experts mailing list
>>> Freebase-experts at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/freebase-experts
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Freebase-experts mailing list
> Freebase-experts at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/freebase-experts

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From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  9 19:39:46 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:39:46 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <4AF4C8FE.10505@metaweb.com>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd><4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com><CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com><f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>	<B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd><5702877271064F878043B56DFEEBBFEC@p4>
	<4AF4C8FE.10505@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <A4E7C1C5812D4D50B6CD10F4DFEEDC2B@p4>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Faye Harris
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 5:10 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> 
> Cool!
> 
> Shouldn't "department of" be "subsidiary department of" to 
> mirror the "subsidiary departments" property name? 

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.

> 
> Will it be incorporated into the Education type, etc.?

Don't know about etc., but it won't be added to the Education CVT -- major
== Field of Study is more informative than department. For example, the
English department at my alma mater had two possible majors (English and
Communications or some such). Knowing that I majored in English is more
useful to know than that my major was inside the English dept.  Plus, that
CVT is pretty chock-full already.

Jeff

> -- Faye
> 
> 
> Jeff Prucher wrote:
> > I've created the Department type, and linked it to 
> College/University 
> > and Academic, as well as given it a phylogeny pattern and dates:
> >
> > http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/department
> >
> > Let me know if I've missed anything.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >   
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> >> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
> Jeff Prucher
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:29 AM
> >> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
> >> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> >>     
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> >>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
> Iain Sproat
> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:49 AM
> >>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert
> >>>       
> >> <kirrily at metaweb.com>
> >>     
> >>> wrote:
> >>>       
> >>>> Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny
> >>>>         
> >> pattern and
> >>     
> >>>> allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.
> >>>>         
> >> Making the type explicitly for "faculties and departments", with a 
> >> phylogeny pattern, might work.  ("Faculty" in this sense 
> is usually 
> >> defined as a "group of departments", FWIW.)
> >>
> >>     
> >>> Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern ("parent 
> >>> institution" property and the "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
> >>> property).  If we need a new "departments" property on 
> >>> college/university then I guess it should have this as a 
> delegated 
> >>> property.
> >>>       
> >> Delegating would turn the departments into educational 
> institutions, 
> >> which we don't want to do.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Data-modeling mailing list
> >> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> >> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >>
> >>     
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From faye at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  9 20:01:19 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:01:19 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
In-Reply-To: <A4E7C1C5812D4D50B6CD10F4DFEEDC2B@p4>
References: <554723b0910311559u482b339l80afe87bad8b4201@mail.gmail.com><554723b0911031359y1d338ff7lbae395fa18ff7ea1@mail.gmail.com><A7869352-664B-433B-AC3C-FEE63F3340D9@metaweb.com><5DDC5D4DBDDD4D7981088DFECBE0B83E@amd><F5093E5F-AF52-4EB2-ADC5-EC0D31676B72@metaweb.com><BD757B0174F845EEA109B085FBC7DAF4@amd><4AF217E2.6030306@metaweb.com><CA755DBE-BE11-46B3-8187-DC6DD4D6A692@metaweb.com><f70332fb0911050449q49632f4fmadeedeb3667288f@mail.gmail.com>	<B435A526B9BE4CFE85911BCEBDD035EF@amd><5702877271064F878043B56DFEEBBFEC@p4>	<4AF4C8FE.10505@metaweb.com>
	<A4E7C1C5812D4D50B6CD10F4DFEEDC2B@p4>
Message-ID: <4AF8750F.8020502@metaweb.com>

On second thought, linking Degree to Department or College/University is 
more interesting. This will support queries such as: return all schools 
in California that offer Ph.D. in English.

-- Faye

Jeff Prucher wrote:
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Faye Harris
>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 5:10 PM
>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>> Shouldn't "department of" be "subsidiary department of" to 
>> mirror the "subsidiary departments" property name? 
>>     
>
> Yes, thanks for pointing that out.
>
>   
>> Will it be incorporated into the Education type, etc.?
>>     
>
> Don't know about etc., but it won't be added to the Education CVT -- major
> == Field of Study is more informative than department. For example, the
> English department at my alma mater had two possible majors (English and
> Communications or some such). Knowing that I majored in English is more
> useful to know than that my major was inside the English dept.  Plus, that
> CVT is pretty chock-full already.
>
> Jeff
>
>   
>> -- Faye
>>
>>
>> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>>     
>>> I've created the Department type, and linked it to 
>>>       
>> College/University 
>>     
>>> and Academic, as well as given it a phylogeny pattern and dates:
>>>
>>> http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/education/department
>>>
>>> Let me know if I've missed anything.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>         
>> Jeff Prucher
>>     
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:29 AM
>>>> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>           
>> Iain Sproat
>>     
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:49 AM
>>>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] schema to represent faculty
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Kirrily Robert
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> <kirrily at metaweb.com>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Seems to me that "department" needs to have a phylogeny
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> pattern and
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>>> allow for an arbitrary hierarchy within a university.
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> Making the type explicitly for "faculties and departments", with a 
>>>> phylogeny pattern, might work.  ("Faculty" in this sense 
>>>>         
>> is usually 
>>     
>>>> defined as a "group of departments", FWIW.)
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Educational Institution already has a phylogeny pattern ("parent 
>>>>> institution" property and the "subsidiary_or_constituent_schools"
>>>>> property).  If we need a new "departments" property on 
>>>>> college/university then I guess it should have this as a 
>>>>>           
>> delegated 
>>     
>>>>> property.
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> Delegating would turn the departments into educational 
>>>>         
>> institutions, 
>>     
>>>> which we don't want to do.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>   


From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov  9 20:49:32 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:49:32 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Address refactoring
In-Reply-To: <9E1BA6AB176A429FACE6C78F3AAB0C7F@p4>
References: <057DA903FBBB428C8A3606CFB057CF92@amd>
	<9E1BA6AB176A429FACE6C78F3AAB0C7F@p4>
Message-ID: <79847E5A502D42C7B44A57E34C1C9A60@p4>

I'm going to take deafening silence as license to go ahead and work with
this list of IS-A commons types: 
 /architecture/structure
/business/shopping_center
 /architecture/landscape_project

(Upon further reflection, and Kirrily's useful description of Is-A as
something that's highly unlikely to move, I think that
/business/business_location doesn't make a whole lot of sense as Is-A
location.)

Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:21 PM
> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Address refactoring
> 
> I wrote:
> > But, in order to kick this off, we need consensus on which types to 
> > change into Is-As.  There are 14 commons types with a property that 
> > expects
> > /location/address:
> > 
> > /architecture/landscape_project
> > /architecture/museum
> > /architecture/structure
> > /award/hall_of_fame
> > /business/business_location
> > /business/shopping_center
> > /education/educational_institution
> > /library/public_library
> > /religion/religious_organization
> > /medicine/hospital
> > 
> > Of these, I propose that only the following should have an Is-A 
> > relationship, and be cotyped with /location/location:
> > /architecture/structure (already includes Location) 
> > /business/shopping_center (already includes Location) 
> > /business/business_location And maybe 
> /architecture/landscape_project; 
> > I'm less clear about how this type functions.
> > 
> > The rest can stay as they are.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts about the Is-a vs. Has-a types listed above?
> Determining which is which is the first requirement for 
> getting this task going. If I hear nothing further, I'll 
> assume this Is-A list is good, and proceed from there.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From spencerkelly86 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:05:22 2009
From: spencerkelly86 at gmail.com (Spencer Kelly)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:05:22 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Help needed with voting on deleting/merging
	topics
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0910261325l377f95b5xc17fcf0bfe065f05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0910261151v29882dc0u396b72e9c6d2ef1c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<A89CA04B-50B0-4EBB-9B66-889CF4248E0C@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0910261249q5590df18hed59ad0a7ddbb201@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f70332fb0910261325l377f95b5xc17fcf0bfe065f05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>

is there a masterlist of template bad names?

 ive been finding uses for alot of these topics in places

law of...  are /law2/legal systems
economy of... and history of ... communications in... are
/book/book_subjects  etc

maybe we could make an official list here-
http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Wikipedia_templates_for_deletion
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From brendan at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 10 20:17:28 2009
From: brendan at metaweb.com (brendan)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:17:28 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] architecture schema property migration to
	/projects/project
Message-ID: <74E49CBF-7FD1-40EB-B8CC-A22E3AFD5939@metaweb.com>

As discussed months ago on this list: /projects/project is a better,  
more generalized home for "project-ish" related property values. I'd  
like to move ahead with migrating property values off of /architecture/ 
structure and on to /projects/project. I will take a conservative  
approach: mark the properties as hidden in architecture and copying  
the values over to project:  3rd party apps will see a degradation of  
data quality but will not break (degradation meaning the data will  
become stale as users add/improve the preferred assertions on "project")

1. hide /architecture/structure properties that have a clear  
"projecty" nature to them:

engineer
engineering_firm
construction_started
contractor
construction_cost

the compromise: I will keep "architect" "architecture_firm" and  
"opened". This is not ideal. To be absolutely consistent, these  
probably should be migrated to project, too. But we have so much data  
for these slots and the topic page for these buildings is much  
enhanced by their presence ("project" values are 3 plies out so you  
would only see them by going to the "edit" view and clicking on the  
"project_focus" cvt.) So, I contend, we should live with the  
denormalization for now and push for the features we need to overcome  
it (a way of seeing/editing deep-deep properties on a freebase.com  
topic page)

2. migrate (copy) property values from structure to project.

engineer (147)
engineering_firm (95)
construction_started (984 date values)
contractor (155)
construction_cost (120 money_value objects)

brendan
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From tfmorris at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 20:55:29 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:55:29 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Help needed with voting on deleting/merging
	topics
In-Reply-To: <db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0910261151v29882dc0u396b72e9c6d2ef1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<A89CA04B-50B0-4EBB-9B66-889CF4248E0C@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0910261249q5590df18hed59ad0a7ddbb201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0910261325l377f95b5xc17fcf0bfe065f05@mail.gmail.com>
	<db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911101255j112a4460vcfeecbd851df0609@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Spencer Kelly
<spencerkelly86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> is there a masterlist of template bad names?

I think everyone has been using their own best judgment.  I think
anything which is a pure list (e.g. discographies) is a safe bet.  I'd
also include anything which is a general discussion or survey rather
than something factual, although I recognize this is less clear cut.

> ?ive been finding uses for alot of these topics in places
>
> law of...? are /law2/legal systems
> economy of... and history of ... communications in... are
> /book/book_subjects? etc

Well, anything can be a subject, so I don't consider that a good
criteria.  I'm sure there is a PhD thesis somewhere about the early
philosophy of the ancient history of the later stage pre-historic
Greek communications infrastructure, but I don't think that's
sufficient justification for keeping this around as a "subject
heading" in anticipation of us having to code the subject of the
thesis.  If we want that kind of thing, we could just use the LoC
subject headings or something similar.

Having said that, I think it would be useful to come to some type of
consensus.  Having one person flag a few hundred things, then others
vote "Keep" on them all without any comment, leaving Jeff to flip a
coin and decide on his own doesn't really seem like a very productive
work style.

Additionally, the whole tool chain is poorly adapted to mass
operations.  Attempting to infer a pattern by reviewing instances
which match it is backwards plus we aren't getting effective review
because people's eyes glaze over (not surprising!).  I saved a half
dozen "* history of *" topics the other day, including at least one
that had something like 4 or 5 Delete votes.  Folks who are doing
these mass deletes should try to define as tight a pattern as possible
and make generous use of the anchor characters (^$) to help the
computer help you.  Doing separate reviews for "^Economic history of"
followed by "^history of" makes it easier for our feeble human eyes to
catch irregularities in the candidate topics.

> maybe we could make an official list here-
> http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Wikipedia_templates_for_deletion

Sure, that sounds like as good a place as any to store the resulting consensus.

Tom

From gordon at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 10 20:59:30 2009
From: gordon at metaweb.com (Gordon Mackenzie)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:59:30 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Film: Production accreditation modification
Message-ID: <7F849355-6B60-41D8-AFF6-971FE6310C44@metaweb.com>

http://www.freebase.com/discuss/threads/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000010569120

Just posting here as well,  if you aren't a member of the Film commons and you care deeply about film accreditation.

~ Gordon

<<< gordon at metaweb.com >>>




From zenkat at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 10 21:11:50 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:11:50 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Help needed with voting on deleting/merging
	topics
In-Reply-To: <db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0910261151v29882dc0u396b72e9c6d2ef1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<A89CA04B-50B0-4EBB-9B66-889CF4248E0C@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0910261249q5590df18hed59ad0a7ddbb201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0910261325l377f95b5xc17fcf0bfe065f05@mail.gmail.com>
	<db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40A8AACD-A4E7-4192-8B14-913193443060@metaweb.com>


On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Spencer Kelly wrote:

> maybe we could make an official list here-
> http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Wikipedia_templates_for_deletion

Good idea, Spencer.

I've added in the current list of things that the Wikipedia Recon  
Pipeline refuses to import.

Brian
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From alecf at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 10 23:54:09 2009
From: alecf at metaweb.com (Alec Flett)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:54:09 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Help needed with voting on deleting/merging
	topics
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911101255j112a4460vcfeecbd851df0609@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f70332fb0910261151v29882dc0u396b72e9c6d2ef1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<A89CA04B-50B0-4EBB-9B66-889CF4248E0C@metaweb.com>
	<f70332fb0910261249q5590df18hed59ad0a7ddbb201@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0910261325l377f95b5xc17fcf0bfe065f05@mail.gmail.com>
	<db945ac40911100705g753e896ep32eef74b90f3b818@mail.gmail.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911101255j112a4460vcfeecbd851df0609@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E634235E-EFB9-460F-9B79-1FDE3E333EB2@metaweb.com>

I don't know the state of it now, but Ariel used to have a tool that  
promoted "Discography of..." into a view which actually listed the  
discography of the particular artist.

Ariel?

Alec

On Nov 10, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Tom Morris wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Spencer Kelly
> <spencerkelly86 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> is there a masterlist of template bad names?
>
> I think everyone has been using their own best judgment.  I think
> anything which is a pure list (e.g. discographies) is a safe bet.  I'd
> also include anything which is a general discussion or survey rather
> than something factual, although I recognize this is less clear cut.
>
>>  ive been finding uses for alot of these topics in places
>>
>> law of...  are /law2/legal systems
>> economy of... and history of ... communications in... are
>> /book/book_subjects  etc
>
> Well, anything can be a subject, so I don't consider that a good
> criteria.  I'm sure there is a PhD thesis somewhere about the early
> philosophy of the ancient history of the later stage pre-historic
> Greek communications infrastructure, but I don't think that's
> sufficient justification for keeping this around as a "subject
> heading" in anticipation of us having to code the subject of the
> thesis.  If we want that kind of thing, we could just use the LoC
> subject headings or something similar.
>
> Having said that, I think it would be useful to come to some type of
> consensus.  Having one person flag a few hundred things, then others
> vote "Keep" on them all without any comment, leaving Jeff to flip a
> coin and decide on his own doesn't really seem like a very productive
> work style.
>
> Additionally, the whole tool chain is poorly adapted to mass
> operations.  Attempting to infer a pattern by reviewing instances
> which match it is backwards plus we aren't getting effective review
> because people's eyes glaze over (not surprising!).  I saved a half
> dozen "* history of *" topics the other day, including at least one
> that had something like 4 or 5 Delete votes.  Folks who are doing
> these mass deletes should try to define as tight a pattern as possible
> and make generous use of the anchor characters (^$) to help the
> computer help you.  Doing separate reviews for "^Economic history of"
> followed by "^history of" makes it easier for our feeble human eyes to
> catch irregularities in the candidate topics.
>
>> maybe we could make an official list here-
>> http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Wikipedia_templates_for_deletion
>
> Sure, that sounds like as good a place as any to store the resulting  
> consensus.
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 00:31:50 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:31:50 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Monthly Freebase meetups in San Francisco
Message-ID: <7C76F410-8BEF-4FF4-8191-97C29839DFB6@metaweb.com>

For those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area, I wanted to let you  
know I've just created a monthly Freebase meetup on meetup.com: http://www.meetup.com/sf-freebase/

The plan is to have a regular gathering each month, a couple of talks/ 
presentations, some pizza, some hack time, and a chance to talk to  
other people who use Freebase and swap tips/ideas/etc.

If you're interested in attending, please join the meetup.com group  
and share it with your friends.

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





From jack.alves at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 15:44:27 2009
From: jack.alves at gmail.com (Jack Alves)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:44:27 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] popstra
Message-ID: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>

A few people have recommended enhancements to schema in
/base/popstra<http://popstra.freebase.com/>,
and asked for some schema to be published. The specific project that
initiated popstra has stopped so the base doesn't have an active
administrator. Does anyone out there want to be an admin? What is the
procedure for publishing schema to the commons? All schema except the
sww_base type can be published. I believe there is also a bunch of
additional data sitting in CSVs that could be imported. I am willing to do
some of the import work and update schema as requested.

Jack
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From philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk  Wed Nov 11 16:03:38 2009
From: philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk (Philip Kendall)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:03:38 +0000
Subject: [Data-modeling] popstra
In-Reply-To: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091111160338.GZ19375@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 07:44:27AM -0800, Jack Alves wrote:
> What is the procedure for publishing schema to the commons?

See the wiki <http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Commons_schema_development>
for some thoughts.

Some more thoughts:

* Most importantly: general agreement among the community that the type
  would be a valuable addition to the Commons.
* Well designed: makes appropriate use of links, CVTs, etc
  (/base/popstra/celebrity/famous_for, I'm looking at you here)
* Stable: not going to change in any ways that will break queries
* Documented: every type and property _must_ be documented
* Naming conventions: http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Naming_conventions

To be honest, I don't think Popstra meets any of those criteria right
now.

Cheers,

Phil

-- 
  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/

From jack.alves at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 16:06:13 2009
From: jack.alves at gmail.com (Jack Alves)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:06:13 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] /popstra/celebrities
Message-ID: <554723b0911110806xe5a2a2dx462984d6d86d8dd7@mail.gmail.com>

I got a request for additional schema that would link to
/base/popstra/celebrity,

"Now that Carrie Prejean has joined the swelling ranks of celebs and
wanna-be-celebs that have made a naughty video for a loved one that has come
back to haunt themeselves, we should probably acknowledge this activity with
a 'made sex tape' and maybe 'nude photos exposed/leaked to press' type."

I agree people desperately need this kind of information structured. So I
want to update schema. It seems a bit too much to add specific properties to
/celebrity for sex tapes and other documented nudity. I thought of adding a
type like /mischief or /nudity with properties for this kind of information.
On the other hand, the /celebrity schema already has specific properties for
substance-abuse, rehab_stay, prison_time. Popstra schema development was a
bit rushed and constrained by factors external to freebase functionality.
There is at least one app that depends on the current schema so I can't make
modifications. My question is whether I should continue down the path of
piling properties on to celebrity. And, yes I am aware that my previous post
mentioned publishing popstra schema.
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From iainsproat at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 17:03:54 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:03:54 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] popstra
In-Reply-To: <20091111160338.GZ19375@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
References: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091111160338.GZ19375@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911110903w2bb0214er1014fc1290fb320@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Philip Kendall
<philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 07:44:27AM -0800, Jack Alves wrote:
>> What is the procedure for publishing schema to the commons?
>
> See the wiki <http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Commons_schema_development>
> for some thoughts.

I've added my thoughts on what the step-by-step procedure of promoting
types to the commons entails:
http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Commons#Promoting_types_to_the_Commons
NB: these are just my thoughts so nothing official - please feel free
to edit and improve these steps.

> * Well designed: makes appropriate use of links, CVTs, etc
> ?(/base/popstra/celebrity/famous_for, I'm looking at you here)

I think a /base/popstra/celebrity_making_vehicle type might be
appropriate as an expected type for this property?  This could be
applied to an event, TV program, film, album, Famous for being famous
etc. etc..  Although things like "Dating Jeremy Piven" might be harder
to work in - unless you type Jeremy Piven as the celebrity making
vehicle?

> To be honest, I don't think Popstra meets any of those criteria right
> now.

Needs some work for sure.

Iain

From jeff at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 19:25:08 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:25:08 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
Message-ID: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>

There's been a request to make the property
/business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems reasonable to
me. Can anyone think of a use case where it should be non-unique?

Jeff Prucher
Type Librarian & Ontologist
Metaweb Technologies, Inc. 



From evening0star at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:56:27 2009
From: evening0star at gmail.com (evening0star)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:56:27 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
Message-ID: <259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>

Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure I follow
how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record? And that would be
for a specific suite #, not the building or general street address?
if so, then makes sense)

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> There's been a request to make the property
> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems reasonable to
> me. Can anyone think of a use case where it should be non-unique?
>
> Jeff Prucher
> Type Librarian & Ontologist
> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From al at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 21:09:36 2009
From: al at metaweb.com (Alexander Marks)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:09:36 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] simplifying TV performance schema
Message-ID: <41A01EFF-C906-4D2A-B8CF-77FB2A9FA291@metaweb.com>

I'd like to simplify the schema for TV performances.

Currently there are 7 CVTs for performances:
 TV regular performance
 TV regular personal appearance
 TV episode performance
 TV episode personal appearance
 TV segment performance
 TV segment guest appearance
 TV segment personal appearance

with 3 corresponding person co-types:
 TV actor
 TV personality
 TV program guest

and 2 "kind-of-performance" annotation enumerations:
 Special TV performance type [Him/Herself, Voice, Announcer, Narrator, ...]
 Personal appearance role [Contestant, Game Show Host, Narrator, Him/Herself, ...]

---------

I'd like to flatten these into 3 performance CVTs:
 TV program performance
 TV episode performance
 TV segment performance

1 person co-type:
 TV actor

and 1 performance annotation:
 TV performance type [Actor, Voice Actor, Host, Interview guest, ...]

---------

The reason for the change is to allow us to load TV performance data when we don't know exactly what kind of performance we have. Most data sources I've encountered don't make this distinction, which it makes it difficult to fit their data into our schema (because we *have* to choose one or the other property). It should make manual data-entry much easier, too.

The caveat of the new model is that the semantics of the TV actor type get blurred: now, even people who only appeared as interview guests will be typed as TV actors (this was the reason for using different properties in the original model). My feeling is that there are other, better ways to make this distinction when it is needed: one can ask for "TV actors who had at least one acting role", or "TV actors whose profession is actor", etc. We could think of another name for TV actor to make this less confusing.

Any objections to or thoughts about this proposal?

Al


From jeff at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 21:24:53 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>

E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and Starbucks
(the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also be used
for branch offices, factories, etc.  It isn't usually used for companies
that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters property is
usually sufficient.  So the question is: are their examples of Business
Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
companies?

Jeff 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of evening0star
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location 
> "parent company"?
> 
> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure 
> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record? 
> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or 
> general street address?
> if so, then makes sense)
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher 
> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> > There's been a request to make the property 
> > /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems 
> > reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it 
> should be non-unique?
> >
> > Jeff Prucher
> > Type Librarian & Ontologist
> > Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From iainsproat at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 21:25:49 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:25:49 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911111325j71e3644eoc528005709c29190@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:56 AM, evening0star <evening0star at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure I follow
> how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record? And that would be
> for a specific suite #, not the building or general street address?
> if so, then makes sense)

The schema is at:
http://www.freebase.com/type/schema/business/business_location

An example of a business location would be:
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/mcdonalds_255_muldoon_rd_anchorage_ak

If two companies shared a building, then there would exist two unique
business location topics.  This is obvious when they have different
suites within that building/address.

I would argue that even if they share the same space and address they
should have separate business location topics.  This is because a
company may move in or leave a space at different times, and the need
to provide data about these different times forces the need for
separate topics.

It would be extremely rare that two or more companies arrive and leave
the same address at exactly the same time, so I'd think forcing
business location separate topics is a relatively small overhead.  In
practice the parent_company property of a business location is unique,
so I think the schema should reflect that.

Iain

From crism at maden.org  Wed Nov 11 21:33:43 2009
From: crism at maden.org (Christopher R. Maden)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:33:43 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] simplifying TV performance schema
In-Reply-To: <41A01EFF-C906-4D2A-B8CF-77FB2A9FA291@metaweb.com>
References: <41A01EFF-C906-4D2A-B8CF-77FB2A9FA291@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <4AFB2DB7.4020204@maden.org>

Alexander Marks wrote:
> Any objections to or thoughts about this proposal?

This seems pretty messy.  It will make every notable politician, author,
musician, shrink, and cook into an actor.  I understand that sometimes
you don?t know, but keeping the types distinct at least allows clean-up
after the fact, as well as getting some leverage out of surprising
assertions that (say) Barack Obama is an actor.

~Chris
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
?The State is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at
 the expense of everyone else.? ? Fr?d?ric Bastiat, ?L??tat?
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

From narphorium at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 21:40:30 2009
From: narphorium at gmail.com (Shawn Simister)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:40:30 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
Message-ID: <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>

What about the Starbucks in Barnes & Noble book stores? If I'm searching 
Freebase for a list of Starbucks in a given city I would expect these 
business locations to show up but technically they are owned and 
operated by Barnes & Noble and are part of the same business location.

Shawn

Jeff Prucher wrote:
> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and Starbucks
> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also be used
> for branch offices, factories, etc.  It isn't usually used for companies
> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters property is
> usually sufficient.  So the question is: are their examples of Business
> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
> companies?
>
> Jeff 
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of evening0star
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location 
>> "parent company"?
>>
>> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure 
>> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record? 
>> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or 
>> general street address?
>> if so, then makes sense)
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher 
>> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> There's been a request to make the property 
>>> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems 
>>> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it 
>>>       
>> should be non-unique?
>>     
>>> Jeff Prucher
>>> Type Librarian & Ontologist
>>> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>   

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From iainsproat at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 22:01:18 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:01:18 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4> <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911111401v759d8043xa89829ada8b8b522@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Shawn Simister <narphorium at gmail.com> wrote:
> What about the Starbucks in Barnes & Noble book stores? If I'm searching
> Freebase for a list of Starbucks in a given city I would expect these
> business locations to show up but technically they are owned and operated by
> Barnes & Noble and are part of the same business location.

Good example.  I see two cases here:
- if the cafe is part of the same company that operates the store then
the business location has dual use.  Only one business location topic
is required, but two building functions noted*.  The contractual data
regarding franchises would belong on a different schema covering that
and not on the business location type.

- if the cafe is operated by another company then it is a case of two
companies sharing the same address.  Two business location topics
would be required.  The contractual relationship between the companies
(regarding rent payments etc.) would belong on another schema, and not
on the business location type.

*There's a discussion about adding a business category (cafe,
restaurant, office etc..) property to business location.
http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000005c77b33

Iain

>
> Shawn
>
> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>
> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and Starbucks
> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also be used
> for branch offices, factories, etc.  It isn't usually used for companies
> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters property is
> usually sufficient.  So the question is: are their examples of Business
> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
> companies?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of evening0star
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location
> "parent company"?
>
> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure
> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record?
> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or
> general street address?
> if so, then makes sense)
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher
> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>
>
> There's been a request to make the property
> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems
> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it
>
>
> should be non-unique?
>
>
> Jeff Prucher
> Type Librarian & Ontologist
> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>

From al at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 21:54:16 2009
From: al at metaweb.com (Alexander Marks)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:54:16 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] simplifying TV performance schema
In-Reply-To: <4AFB2DB7.4020204@maden.org>
References: <41A01EFF-C906-4D2A-B8CF-77FB2A9FA291@metaweb.com>
	<4AFB2DB7.4020204@maden.org>
Message-ID: <0E1A4F0D-6542-42F5-A126-B3E3D2DAFDB2@metaweb.com>

That's only a problem if you think about /tv/tv_actor as something like an assertion of profession. I don't think we should. The model already breaks down in this way: any person who has appeared in a small acting role (say, an SNL skit) will be typed as a TV Actor. I think we should rename TV Actor (or maybe make a new type -- we could leave TV Actor around) so that this is less confusing. And to be clear, we won't lose any of the level of detail we currently have -- the new general performance CVT will specify through the performance type property whether it is an acting role or a personal appearance (this fact is currently asserted via the choice of property connecting to the CVT).

Al


On Nov 11, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Christopher R. Maden wrote:

> Alexander Marks wrote:
>> Any objections to or thoughts about this proposal?
> 
> This seems pretty messy.  It will make every notable politician, author,
> musician, shrink, and cook into an actor.  I understand that sometimes
> you don?t know, but keeping the types distinct at least allows clean-up
> after the fact, as well as getting some leverage out of surprising
> assertions that (say) Barack Obama is an actor.
> 
> ~Chris
> -- 
> Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
> ?The State is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at
> the expense of everyone else.? ? Fr?d?ric Bastiat, ?L??tat?
> GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 11 21:51:20 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:51:20 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
Message-ID: <7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>

How about a Starbucks inside a Borders?

K.

On 11/11/2009, at 1:24 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:

> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and  
> Starbucks
> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also  
> be used
> for branch offices, factories, etc.  It isn't usually used for  
> companies
> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters  
> property is
> usually sufficient.  So the question is: are their examples of  
> Business
> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
> companies?
>
> Jeff
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of evening0star
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location
>> "parent company"?
>>
>> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure
>> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record?
>> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or
>> general street address?
>> if so, then makes sense)
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher
>> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>> There's been a request to make the property
>>> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems
>>> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it
>> should be non-unique?
>>>
>>> Jeff Prucher
>>> Type Librarian & Ontologist
>>> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From kurt at spaceship.com  Wed Nov 11 22:44:48 2009
From: kurt at spaceship.com (Kurt Bollacker)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:44:48 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] simplifying TV performance schema
In-Reply-To: <0E1A4F0D-6542-42F5-A126-B3E3D2DAFDB2@metaweb.com>
References: <41A01EFF-C906-4D2A-B8CF-77FB2A9FA291@metaweb.com>
	<4AFB2DB7.4020204@maden.org>
	<0E1A4F0D-6542-42F5-A126-B3E3D2DAFDB2@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <20091111224448.GG27371@spaceship.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:54:16PM -0800, Alexander Marks wrote:
> That's only a problem if you think about /tv/tv_actor as something
> like an assertion of profession. I don't think we should. The model
> already breaks down in this way: any person who has appeared in a
> small acting role (say, an SNL skit) will be typed as a TV Actor. I
> think we should rename TV Actor (or maybe make a new type -- we
> could leave TV Actor around) so that this is less confusing. And to
> be clear, we won't lose any of the level of detail we currently have
> -- the new general performance CVT will specify through the
> performance type property whether it is an acting role or a personal
> appearance (this fact is currently asserted via the choice of
> property connecting to the CVT).

How about one of:

/tv/tv_participant
/tv/tv_person
/tv/tv_performer

to replace /tv/tv_actor?

							Kurt :-)


From narphorium at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 22:46:38 2009
From: narphorium at gmail.com (Shawn Simister)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] popstra
In-Reply-To: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554723b0911110744i6189bccdlec3421709f4e3d66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AFB3ECE.5050500@gmail.com>

I think it would be great to have some of the Popstra data as part of 
the commons. As Iain noted there would probably be some schema 
refactoring required. For example, the /celebrity/heat and 
/celebrity/interest properties wouldn't have a well-defined use for the 
broader Freebase community. But I'd hate to see all that hard work got 
to waste so I think we should try to find ways to migrate some of this 
data into the commons.

I guess the best starting point would be to figure which 
types/properties would get moved over and which ones wouldn't.

Shawn

Jack Alves wrote:
> A few people have recommended enhancements to schema in /base/popstra 
> <http://popstra.freebase.com/>, and asked for some schema to be 
> published. The specific project that initiated popstra has stopped so 
> the base doesn't have an active administrator. Does anyone out there 
> want to be an admin? What is the procedure for publishing schema to 
> the commons? All schema except the sww_base type can be published. I 
> believe there is also a bunch of additional data sitting in CSVs that 
> could be imported. I am willing to do some of the import work and 
> update schema as requested.
>
> Jack
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>   

-------------- next part --------------
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From evening0star at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 00:27:30 2009
From: evening0star at gmail.com (evening0star)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
	<7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <259286b0911111627s6b072d6ew6caa1902cb99716@mail.gmail.com>

I think there are cases where a holding company shares the same HQ
address as the main operating company (when the holding co is just a
shell).  So the address itself would not be unique.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> How about a Starbucks inside a Borders?
>
> K.
>
> On 11/11/2009, at 1:24 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>
>> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and
>> Starbucks
>> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also
>> be used
>> for branch offices, factories, etc. ?It isn't usually used for
>> companies
>> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters
>> property is
>> usually sufficient. ?So the question is: are their examples of
>> Business
>> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
>> companies?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of evening0star
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location
>>> "parent company"?
>>>
>>> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure
>>> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record?
>>> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or
>>> general street address?
>>> if so, then makes sense)
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher
>>> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>>> There's been a request to make the property
>>>> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems
>>>> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it
>>> should be non-unique?
>>>>
>>>> Jeff Prucher
>>>> Type Librarian & Ontologist
>>>> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
> --
> Kirrily Robert
> Freebase Community Director
> kirrily at metaweb.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From alecf at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 12 17:28:21 2009
From: alecf at metaweb.com (Alec Flett)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:28:21 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <259286b0911111627s6b072d6ew6caa1902cb99716@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
	<7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>
	<259286b0911111627s6b072d6ew6caa1902cb99716@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17833AFA-67D1-40D8-B70A-96A7944E0002@metaweb.com>

The irony is the last time I went into a starbucks inside a Borders  
(or a barnes and noble, I forget) and tried to use a starbucks coupon,  
the guy behind the counter said, "We can't accept that because  
technically we're not really a *real* starbucks" - a lot of grey areas  
to franchising :)

Alec

On Nov 11, 2009, at 4:27 PM, evening0star wrote:

> I think there are cases where a holding company shares the same HQ
> address as the main operating company (when the holding co is just a
> shell).  So the address itself would not be unique.
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Kirrily Robert  
> <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
>> How about a Starbucks inside a Borders?
>>
>> K.
>>
>> On 11/11/2009, at 1:24 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>>
>>> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and
>>> Starbucks
>>> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also
>>> be used
>>> for branch offices, factories, etc.  It isn't usually used for
>>> companies
>>> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters
>>> property is
>>> usually sufficient.  So the question is: are their examples of
>>> Business
>>> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
>>> companies?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of  
>>>> evening0star
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
>>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location
>>>> "parent company"?
>>>>
>>>> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure
>>>> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record?
>>>> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or
>>>> general street address?
>>>> if so, then makes sense)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher
>>>> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>>>> There's been a request to make the property
>>>>> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems
>>>>> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it
>>>> should be non-unique?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Prucher
>>>>> Type Librarian & Ontologist
>>>>> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>> --
>> Kirrily Robert
>> Freebase Community Director
>> kirrily at metaweb.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From iainsproat at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 17:37:23 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:37:23 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <17833AFA-67D1-40D8-B70A-96A7944E0002@metaweb.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>
	<7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>
	<259286b0911111627s6b072d6ew6caa1902cb99716@mail.gmail.com>
	<17833AFA-67D1-40D8-B70A-96A7944E0002@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911120937o1ae9373dnf420fa0881cdee95@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Alec Flett <alecf at metaweb.com> wrote:
> The irony is the last time I went into a starbucks inside a Borders
> (or a barnes and noble, I forget) and tried to use a starbucks coupon,
> the guy behind the counter said, "We can't accept that because
> technically we're not really a *real* starbucks" - a lot of grey areas
> to franchising :)

The irony is that Starbucks doesn't do franchising, they call it a
"licensing agreement".
http://www.starbucks.com/customer/faq_qanda.asp?name=common

Iain

>
> Alec
>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 4:27 PM, evening0star wrote:
>
>> I think there are cases where a holding company shares the same HQ
>> address as the main operating company (when the holding co is just a
>> shell). ?So the address itself would not be unique.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Kirrily Robert
>> <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>> How about a Starbucks inside a Borders?
>>>
>>> K.
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2009, at 1:24 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>>>
>>>> E.g., the Starbucks down the street is a Business Location, and
>>>> Starbucks
>>>> (the corporation) is the parent company. Business Location can also
>>>> be used
>>>> for branch offices, factories, etc. ?It isn't usually used for
>>>> companies
>>>> that have only one office like Metaweb, since the headquarters
>>>> property is
>>>> usually sufficient. ?So the question is: are their examples of
>>>> Business
>>>> Locations where there could legitimately be two simultaneous parent
>>>> companies?
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>>>>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of
>>>>> evening0star
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:56 PM
>>>>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location
>>>>> "parent company"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you give an example of how it would be used? I'm not sure
>>>>> I follow how it would work (Metaweb HQ would be the record?
>>>>> And that would be for a specific suite #, not the building or
>>>>> general street address?
>>>>> if so, then makes sense)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Prucher
>>>>> <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There's been a request to make the property
>>>>>> /business/business_location/parent_company unique, which seems
>>>>>> reasonable to me. Can anyone think of a use case where it
>>>>> should be non-unique?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff Prucher
>>>>>> Type Librarian & Ontologist
>>>>>> Metaweb Technologies, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kirrily Robert
>>> Freebase Community Director
>>> kirrily at metaweb.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Data-modeling mailing list
>>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From crism at maden.org  Thu Nov 12 19:16:42 2009
From: crism at maden.org (Christopher R. Maden)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:16:42 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <17833AFA-67D1-40D8-B70A-96A7944E0002@metaweb.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4>	<7CE96A36-FE60-459A-9C99-CFA513A811E7@metaweb.com>	<259286b0911111627s6b072d6ew6caa1902cb99716@mail.gmail.com>
	<17833AFA-67D1-40D8-B70A-96A7944E0002@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <4AFC5F1A.4040206@maden.org>

Alec Flett wrote:
> The irony is the last time I went into a starbucks inside a Borders  
> (or a barnes and noble, I forget) and tried to use a starbucks coupon,  
> the guy behind the counter said, "We can't accept that because  
> technically we're not really a *real* starbucks" - a lot of grey areas  
> to franchising :)

That?s actually an important semantic point.  Now that I think about it,
these are usually ?Borders Caf? featuring Starbucks Coffee? or something
like that.  They are not Starbucks; they sell a Starbucks product, which
is different.  That makes the business location model a lot simpler...

(Now what about McDonald?s inside a Wal-Mart?)

~Chris
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
?The State is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at
 the expense of everyone else.? ? Fr?d?ric Bastiat, ?L??tat?
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

From tfmorris at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 20:32:05 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:32:05 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4> <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911121232w66401bfag802f4294ceec00ee@mail.gmail.com>

Even with all these examples, I'm having a hard time imagining a
scenario where there could be more than one parent company.  The
parent company could be a franchiser, franchisee, host company, joint
venture between multiple companies or probably something a lot more
complex, but it's going to be a single entity.

I don't see the problem with multiple companies having the same
location, whether they be locations for postal delivery, customer
walkup entrance, or vendor delivery.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Shawn Simister <narphorium at gmail.com> wrote:
> What about the Starbucks in Barnes & Noble book stores? If I'm searching
> Freebase for a list of Starbucks in a given city I would expect these
> business locations to show up but technically they are owned and operated by
> Barnes & Noble and are part of the same business location.

I'd argue that you should be searching for a place that serves a
Starbucks (r) Double Mocha Frou Frou (tm) unless you've got a strong
preference for company owned stores vs franchisees vs other types of
licensees in which case you can further qualify the search.

Tom

From alecf at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 12 22:24:53 2009
From: alecf at metaweb.com (Alec Flett)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:24:53 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Uniquify Business Location "parent company"?
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911121232w66401bfag802f4294ceec00ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E55DCF0383940F0A2E9C0B38F623910@p4>
	<259286b0911111256j493e089eyf398b6e71eb06803@mail.gmail.com>
	<387C9A38E62842C5A3DEAA4B46440D10@p4> <4AFB2F4E.4040704@gmail.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911121232w66401bfag802f4294ceec00ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2FC9391-2086-4A70-970A-5855F8B3381B@metaweb.com>


On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Tom Morris wrote:

> Even with all these examples, I'm having a hard time imagining a
> scenario where there could be more than one parent company.  The
> parent company could be a franchiser, franchisee, host company, joint
> venture between multiple companies or probably something a lot more
> complex, but it's going to be a single entity.
>
> I don't see the problem with multiple companies having the same
> location, whether they be locations for postal delivery, customer
> walkup entrance, or vendor delivery.

+1 - I didn't mean to muddle the issue with my example, it was more  
for humor than a real use case :)

Alec

>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Shawn Simister  
> <narphorium at gmail.com> wrote:
>> What about the Starbucks in Barnes & Noble book stores? If I'm  
>> searching
>> Freebase for a list of Starbucks in a given city I would expect these
>> business locations to show up but technically they are owned and  
>> operated by
>> Barnes & Noble and are part of the same business location.
>
> I'd argue that you should be searching for a place that serves a
> Starbucks (r) Double Mocha Frou Frou (tm) unless you've got a strong
> preference for company owned stores vs franchisees vs other types of
> licensees in which case you can further qualify the search.
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 13 18:48:55 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:48:55 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
Message-ID: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>

We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what  
makes a genre for books/film/games/etc.  I was just pondering it and  
two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to  
share and ask opinions on:

1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative  
vocabulary

(Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)

What do you think?

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From narphorium at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 21:24:34 2009
From: narphorium at gmail.com (Shawn Simister)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:24:34 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com>

I think both of these are probably accurate definitions of genre. 
However, if the purpose is to define what should and shouldn't be 
modeled as a genre in Freebase then I think the first definition gives a 
clearer line of separation. For example, given two books, I'm sure 
someone could find a common creative vocabulary between them but it 
would be more difficult to argue that that vocabulary has a broad enough 
appeal that it could be considered a viable market segment.

Thanks for sharing,

Shawn

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what  
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc.  I was just pondering it and  
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to  
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative  
> vocabulary
>
> (Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)
>
> What do you think?
>
> K.
>
>   


From jeff at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 13 22:29:55 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:29:55 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>

I don't think we could limit it by the first definition, however. Looking at
books, in the US fiction market there are really only a few genres that are
marketing-based: mystery, romance, western, horror, science fiction,
fantasy, and erotica. But to say that "cyberpunk" or "police procedural" or
"technothriller" aren't genres by any popular conception would be
problematic, I think.  I think people understand the idea of genres enough
that Kirrily's second definition would steer them in the right direction.

Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of 
> Shawn Simister
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:25 PM
> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Genres
> 
> I think both of these are probably accurate definitions of genre. 
> However, if the purpose is to define what should and 
> shouldn't be modeled as a genre in Freebase then I think the 
> first definition gives a clearer line of separation. For 
> example, given two books, I'm sure someone could find a 
> common creative vocabulary between them but it would be more 
> difficult to argue that that vocabulary has a broad enough 
> appeal that it could be considered a viable market segment.
> 
> Thanks for sharing,
> 
> Shawn
> 
> Kirrily Robert wrote:
> > We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what 
> > makes a genre for books/film/games/etc.  I was just 
> pondering it and 
> > two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to 
> > share and ask opinions on:
> >
> > 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> > 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative 
> > vocabulary
> >
> > (Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > K.
> >
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> 


From kirrily at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 13 22:37:42 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:37:42 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
Message-ID: <2EDF638C-6C7E-4D2C-9804-2BA79BE69BF3@metaweb.com>

On 13/11/2009, at 2:29 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:

> I don't think we could limit it by the first definition, however.  
> Looking at
> books, in the US fiction market there are really only a few genres  
> that are
> marketing-based: mystery, romance, western, horror, science fiction,
> fantasy, and erotica. But to say that "cyberpunk" or "police  
> procedural" or
> "technothriller" aren't genres by any popular conception would be
> problematic, I think.  I think people understand the idea of genres  
> enough
> that Kirrily's second definition would steer them in the right  
> direction.


Right.  And that becomes particularly important when you start getting  
into areas where things aren't marketed by putting them on shelves.   
For instance, I think we could probably agree that plays have genres  
(comedy of manners, grand guignol, morality play) but you can't go  
into a play shop and see them all neatly set out in sections the way  
you do in a bookstore or a video rental place.

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From kirrily at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 13 22:43:39 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:43:39 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <9571DD1E-80CC-4B12-9527-55E7AB141238@metaweb.com>

Incidentally, some of you might enjoy this article by a prominent SF  
author talking about what "genre" means to her: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=164952151&blogID=423204224

My first definition is basically Lois's third one (marketing), and my  
second is her first (works in conversation with each other).

K.

On 13/11/2009, at 10:48 AM, Kirrily Robert wrote:

> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc.  I was just pondering it and
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
> vocabulary
>
> (Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)
>
> What do you think?
>
> K.
>
> -- 
> Kirrily Robert
> Freebase Community Director
> kirrily at metaweb.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From tfmorris at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 23:00:52 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:00:52 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911131500t30068979g6ee6e50b51027f20@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc. ?I was just pondering it and
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
> vocabulary
>
> (Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)

I looked at a few different dictionaries and they all pretty much said
"a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form,
content, technique, or the like."  That sounds like about what I
expect when I hear genre.  It's just a category -- of any flavor.

Is part of the problem here that genre is expected to be unique?  I
certainly think a game could be of the first person shooter, World War
II-based, and 3D graphics genres simultaneously.  Certainly subjects
would be used for content-based genres, but you could have genres
which revolve around technologies or authors (FPS created by women) or
form (compositions for string quartets) almost anything else.

Certainly for some applications having things line up with

> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing

would work best, e.g. if sales were being reported this way, but I
think there are lots of useful categories which don't align with
market segmentation.

If you have to pick a single genre for an item, it makes the
categorization a lot trickier, but I think the solution to that is to
allow multiple genres, not constrain what types of genres are legal.

Tom

From jon at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 13 23:25:21 2009
From: jon at metaweb.com (Jon Reitsma)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:25:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911131500t30068979g6ee6e50b51027f20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2015526198.248411258154721123.JavaMail.root@zimbra01.corp.sjc1.metaweb.com>

multiple genres are already allowed - I routinely apply more than one as needed to films.  i don't think anyone is lobbying for that to go away - are they?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Morris" <tfmorris at gmail.com>
To: "Freebase data modeling mailing list" <data-modeling at freebase.com>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:00:52 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Genres

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 1:48 PM, Kirrily Robert <kirrily at metaweb.com> wrote:
> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc. ?I was just pondering it and
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
> vocabulary
>
> (Both, of course, being regardless of actual subject matter.)

I looked at a few different dictionaries and they all pretty much said
"a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form,
content, technique, or the like."  That sounds like about what I
expect when I hear genre.  It's just a category -- of any flavor.

Is part of the problem here that genre is expected to be unique?  I
certainly think a game could be of the first person shooter, World War
II-based, and 3D graphics genres simultaneously.  Certainly subjects
would be used for content-based genres, but you could have genres
which revolve around technologies or authors (FPS created by women) or
form (compositions for string quartets) almost anything else.

Certainly for some applications having things line up with

> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing

would work best, e.g. if sales were being reported this way, but I
think there are lots of useful categories which don't align with
market segmentation.

If you have to pick a single genre for an item, it makes the
categorization a lot trickier, but I think the solution to that is to
allow multiple genres, not constrain what types of genres are legal.

Tom
_______________________________________________
Data-modeling mailing list
Data-modeling at freebase.com
http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling

From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 05:45:39 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:45:39 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs
Message-ID: <be63e0470911142145g34676554x64f325292fa431ec@mail.gmail.com>

I found an issue with uploading CVTs that I'm not sure how to resolve from
the docs. I'm experimenting with uploading a Food producing region which has
a CVT of Produce availability. Produce availability has Produce and months
available. Typically one Produce entry will have multiple Months available
entries, but when I add using the data loader, it interprets each line as a
separate pair, so if adding 1 Produce with 3 Months available, I get 3
entries, the latter 2 containing just the months.

Is there a trick to tie the months available column to the preceeding
Produce column?

thanks

paul
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 06:20:14 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:20:14 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
Message-ID: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>

Thinking about how to record farmer's market vendors attendance dates, I
have a couple of questions:

How to represent something like the "1st Saturday of May"? Day of Year is
too specific - it will change every year.

Taking http://www.eatlocal.org/farm%20vendors/alberts_herbs.html as an
example, some vendors have pretty complex dates to represent. Any thoughts
on how to show certain dates in certain months, "every week" for other
months and so on? Or is trying to model all this adding too much complexity?

cheers

paul
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From jg at metaweb.com  Sun Nov 15 06:40:15 2009
From: jg at metaweb.com (John Giannandrea)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:40:15 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1EB308AD-BDCD-4BD3-BE8C-AE7CBBF8A9DB@metaweb.com>


the datetime type and all its derivatives in freebase are a strict  
subset of ISO 8601 (as is w3c NOTE-datetime)

ISO 8601 supports time intervals and recurring times, but only  
specified as specific dates or weeks of the year.

looking at your examples, some seem specific to 2009, so perhaps just  
a simple aggregate calendar of dates would work.

it would be great to be able to model 'closed on the second wednesday  
of the month' but I think that needs a whole new type proposal.

-jg


On Nov 14, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Paul Mackay wrote:

> Thinking about how to record farmer's market vendors attendance  
> dates, I have a couple of questions:
>
> How to represent something like the "1st Saturday of May"? Day of  
> Year is too specific - it will change every year.
>
> Taking http://www.eatlocal.org/farm%20vendors/alberts_herbs.html as  
> an example, some vendors have pretty complex dates to represent. Any  
> thoughts on how to show certain dates in certain months, "every  
> week" for other months and so on? Or is trying to model all this  
> adding too much complexity?
>
> cheers
>
> paul
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling


From crism at maden.org  Sun Nov 15 17:10:12 2009
From: crism at maden.org (Christopher R. Maden)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:10:12 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0035F4.8030404@maden.org>

Paul Mackay wrote:
> Thinking about how to record farmer's market vendors attendance dates, I
> have a couple of questions:
> 
> How to represent something like the "1st Saturday of May"? Day of Year is
> too specific - it will change every year.

I think Day of Year is exactly the thing.  Check out Easter, <URL:
http://www.freebase.com/view/en/easter >.  Its day of year is First
Sunday after the first full moon on or after March 21, <URL:
http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000004f3fe29 >.

~Chris
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
?The State is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at
 the expense of everyone else.? ? Fr?d?ric Bastiat, ?L??tat?
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 22:09:39 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:09:39 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Creating topics for things with no obvious name
Message-ID: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>

What is the best way to create topics about things that don't have obvious
names? Some of the things I'm thinking about on Freebase fall into this
category, e.g.

Community noticeboards
Wild growing food sites
Recycling bin locations (for clothes, books, etc)

These are "things" that certainly have properties and locations, but I don't
see a way to add topics without a title unless they are CVTs. Is the best
thing to just invent a title based on what it is and the location, e.g.
"Noticeboard at 10th and Broadway"? Or is it worth somehow modelling them as
CVTs by having a catch-all topic such as "Wild food sites in Vancouver" that
has a property listing a CVT type?

thanks

paul
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From iainsproat at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 22:35:34 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:35:34 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Creating topics for things with no obvious name
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911151435s4dbfa818y40439f5bdd195335@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the best way to create topics about things that don't have obvious
> names? Some of the things I'm thinking about on Freebase fall into this
> category, e.g.

A CVT would be best.

>
> Community noticeboard

CVT with properties for location/address and community might work.

> Wild growing food sites

CVT with properties for food, and location.

> Recycling bin locations (for clothes, books, etc)

CVT with properties for location, recyclable material

>
> These are "things" that certainly have properties and locations, but I don't
> see a way to add topics without a title unless they are CVTs. Is the best
> thing to just invent a title based on what it is and the location, e.g.
> "Noticeboard at 10th and Broadway"?

This sort of name is OK if a CVT isn't suitable.

> Or is it worth somehow modelling them as
> CVTs by having a catch-all topic such as "Wild food sites in Vancouver" that
> has a property listing a CVT type?

We're going through deleting topics which are lists (they are replaced
by Freebase views, and MQL queries), so not recommended. - see
http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Subject
I'd suggest two topics - one for "wild food", the other for
"vancouver" linked through a CVT.

Iain


>
> thanks
>
> paul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>

From kirrily at metaweb.com  Mon Nov 16 17:30:08 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:30:08 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <4B0035F4.8030404@maden.org>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B0035F4.8030404@maden.org>
Message-ID: <47444740-F544-4EE3-90D8-C73A7CA3ABEF@metaweb.com>

On 15/11/2009, at 9:10 AM, Christopher R. Maden wrote:

> Paul Mackay wrote:
>> Thinking about how to record farmer's market vendors attendance  
>> dates, I
>> have a couple of questions:
>>
>> How to represent something like the "1st Saturday of May"? Day of  
>> Year is
>> too specific - it will change every year.
>
> I think Day of Year is exactly the thing.  Check out Easter, <URL:
> http://www.freebase.com/view/en/easter >.  Its day of year is First
> Sunday after the first full moon on or after March 21, <URL:
> http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000004f3fe29 >.

Just to be randomly pedantic and complicate matters, I believe that  
Eastern Orthodox churches calculate the date of Easter differently.   
The day of year property is non-unique, but there's no good way to say  
that the two values are exclusive.  Hmm.

K.

-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com




From philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk  Mon Nov 16 18:05:59 2009
From: philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk (Philip Kendall)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:05:59 +0000
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
Message-ID: <20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 02:29:55PM -0800, Jeff Prucher wrote:
> I don't think we could limit it by the first definition, however. Looking at
> books, in the US fiction market there are really only a few genres that are
> marketing-based: mystery, romance, western, horror, science fiction,
> fantasy, and erotica. But to say that "cyberpunk" or "police procedural" or
> "technothriller" aren't genres by any popular conception would be
> problematic, I think.  I think people understand the idea of genres enough
> that Kirrily's second definition would steer them in the right direction.

This makes sense to me. Where I start having problems is when a class of
works share a small common vocabulary - how much is needed in order for
something to become a genre rather than a subject?

Throwing some video game related cases out there:

* Sports game /en/sports_game: clearly a Video Game Genre
* Arena football /en/arena_football: I'd say a subject. There's no new
  vocabulary used specifically in arena football games
* American football /guid/9202a8c04000641f800000000000427f: this is
  the sort of thing about which I have problems - I don't think there's
  any new vocabulary used here that isn't common to other sports games,
  but maybe that's just because I don't play this sort of game much.
* Zombie /en/zombie: Currently typed as a genre, but I'd say more a
  subject.

Cheers,

Phil

-- 
  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/

From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov 16 19:01:44 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:01:44 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911142145g34676554x64f325292fa431ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911142145g34676554x64f325292fa431ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD231A7C2B2F48C3A0655EED1947F110@p4>

Assuming that you're talking about the list importer
(http://www.freebase.com/importer/list), it doesn't handle non-unique CVT
properties at all.  For this, you need to use the (very alpha-y) spreadsheet
loader: http://data.labs.freebase.com/recon/recon.html. Or just load one
value, and add the rest by hand later (fun, I know).
 
Jeff
  


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mackay
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:46 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs


I found an issue with uploading CVTs that I'm not sure how to resolve from
the docs. I'm experimenting with uploading a Food producing region which has
a CVT of Produce availability. Produce availability has Produce and months
available. Typically one Produce entry will have multiple Months available
entries, but when I add using the data loader, it interprets each line as a
separate pair, so if adding 1 Produce with 3 Months available, I get 3
entries, the latter 2 containing just the months.

Is there a trick to tie the months available column to the preceeding
Produce column?

thanks

paul


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From jeff at metaweb.com  Mon Nov 16 19:12:57 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:12:57 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Creating topics for things with no obvious name
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE405248FEF4689BD3DF0F215EB5916@p4>

CVTs off of an appropriate type would work pretty well, although plotting a
location on them would be tricky, unless you just used the Address type
instead of a new CVT. (Unfortunately, however, I believe that only US
addresses get automatically geocoded.)
 
A standard type could be used if you had additional things to say about the
topics that couldn't be easily expressed in a CVT.
 
Creating a type to hold the CVT properties is the other challenge -- "place
with community noticeboards" just doesn't have a great ring to it. A
"community" type might work, I suppose.
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mackay
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:10 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: [Data-modeling] Creating topics for things with no obvious name


What is the best way to create topics about things that don't have obvious
names? Some of the things I'm thinking about on Freebase fall into this
category, e.g. 

Community noticeboards
Wild growing food sites
Recycling bin locations (for clothes, books, etc)

These are "things" that certainly have properties and locations, but I don't
see a way to add topics without a title unless they are CVTs. Is the best
thing to just invent a title based on what it is and the location, e.g.
"Noticeboard at 10th and Broadway"? Or is it worth somehow modelling them as
CVTs by having a catch-all topic such as "Wild food sites in Vancouver" that
has a property listing a CVT type?

thanks

paul



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From philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk  Mon Nov 16 19:14:04 2009
From: philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk (Philip Kendall)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:14:04 +0000
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <47444740-F544-4EE3-90D8-C73A7CA3ABEF@metaweb.com>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B0035F4.8030404@maden.org>
	<47444740-F544-4EE3-90D8-C73A7CA3ABEF@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <20091116191404.GH18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 09:30:08AM -0800, Kirrily Robert wrote:
> 
> Just to be randomly pedantic and complicate matters, I believe that  
> Eastern Orthodox churches calculate the date of Easter differently.   
> The day of year property is non-unique, but there's no good way to say  
> that the two values are exclusive.  Hmm.

Question: as they occur on different days, should we be modelling
"Western" Easter and "Eastern" Easter as one topic?

Answer: don't know!

Cheers,

Phil

-- 
  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/

From kirrily at metaweb.com  Mon Nov 16 20:53:20 2009
From: kirrily at metaweb.com (Kirrily Robert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:53:20 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Please vote on the review queue
Message-ID: <8D6E1BF5-8286-439D-9851-5C60E225F372@metaweb.com>

Hi all,

This isn't strictly a dev or data-modeling issue, so I hope you don't  
mind me posting about it, but we need to rally the troops to attack  
our review queue (http://www.freebase.com/tools/pipeline/showtask).   
The review queue is where things wind up that are flagged "delete" or  
"merge" via the Freebase website.  Due to some mass-flagging of  
certain Wikipedia topics for delete (a good thing!) and a bug that  
meant some people's votes weren't being applied effectively (not such  
a good thing!) the queue has recently built up to over 3000 items.   
However, we've got a workaround for that bug so people's votes count  
fully now.

If you've got a few minutes to spare, please go vote on some stuff!   
Each item needs a consensus between three voters to be processed.   
There's some more documentation of how it works and how you should  
vote here: http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Review_Queue

K.


-- 
Kirrily Robert
Freebase Community Director
kirrily at metaweb.com
http://freebase.com/





From tfmorris at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 00:15:13 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:15:13 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] [Freebase-experts] open library editions test
	load
In-Reply-To: <97E81B9E-10CF-4540-BE52-B79D76A2C767@metaweb.com>
References: <1FB69464-A638-43DE-9A0C-F181D0D6C9A2@metaweb.com>
	<FC326432-3EFA-4946-9009-154C3DB20751@metaweb.com>
	<1A5B1864-7B59-4585-ABFB-2DCC22BEB28A@metaweb.com>
	<FDE31255-EAD3-4B5D-9730-CA972D038DE8@metaweb.com>
	<97E81B9E-10CF-4540-BE52-B79D76A2C767@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911161615q6ef15896i65660d0627061a0f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Brian Karlak <zenkat at metaweb.com> wrote:

> The final round of QC on the Open Library Editions load has completed, and
> we started loading the ~2.2M passing editions into Freebase over the
> weekend. ?The load contains just under 17M "triples", and at current load
> speeds will take just over a week (!) to complete.

Very cool!  Any update on the estimated completion of this phase?

Also, for those of us with porous memories, can you recap where we
stand in the grand scheme of things?  Which of the 1.2M/2.2M figures
is correct (I've seen both) and what % of the total does it represent?
 Does the remainder get addressed "soon," in a year or two, or never?
What additional phases, if any, are there left to do for the
OpenLibrary project?

Congrats to Vishal, Brian, and everyone involved in this *massive* project.

Tom

From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 05:49:10 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:49:10 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs
In-Reply-To: <DD231A7C2B2F48C3A0655EED1947F110@p4>
References: <be63e0470911142145g34676554x64f325292fa431ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<DD231A7C2B2F48C3A0655EED1947F110@p4>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911162149o2ce17190u78f3d1de005eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>

Actually I was using the spreadsheet loader. I followed the docs on
importing CVTs, and it certainly would work for CVTs that are 1-1 pairs. But
it fails when one property of the CVT can have multiple values. Is this
expected behaviour for this tool?

paul

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:

>  Assuming that you're talking about the list importer (
> http://www.freebase.com/importer/list), it doesn't handle non-unique CVT
> properties at all.  For this, you need to use the (very alpha-y) spreadsheet
> loader: http://data.labs.freebase.com/recon/recon.html. Or just load one
> value, and add the rest by hand later (fun, I know).
>
> Jeff
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com [mailto:
> data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Mackay
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:46 PM
> *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
> *Subject:* [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs
>
> I found an issue with uploading CVTs that I'm not sure how to resolve from
> the docs. I'm experimenting with uploading a Food producing region which has
> a CVT of Produce availability. Produce availability has Produce and months
> available. Typically one Produce entry will have multiple Months available
> entries, but when I add using the data loader, it interprets each line as a
> separate pair, so if adding 1 Produce with 3 Months available, I get 3
> entries, the latter 2 containing just the months.
>
> Is there a trick to tie the months available column to the preceeding
> Produce column?
>
> thanks
>
> paul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 05:57:48 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:57:48 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911162157x4abd53b9od80429b781008c4a@mail.gmail.com>

It may be specific to computer games but after reading Tom's comments it
seemed to me that the genre would be something like WW2 or sports, but
things like whether the game was 3D, first person, etc is rather more
categorisation or properties of the game than distinct genres. Maybe not too
significant though....

paul

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Philip Kendall <
philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 02:29:55PM -0800, Jeff Prucher wrote:
> > I don't think we could limit it by the first definition, however. Looking
> at
> > books, in the US fiction market there are really only a few genres that
> are
> > marketing-based: mystery, romance, western, horror, science fiction,
> > fantasy, and erotica. But to say that "cyberpunk" or "police procedural"
> or
> > "technothriller" aren't genres by any popular conception would be
> > problematic, I think.  I think people understand the idea of genres
> enough
> > that Kirrily's second definition would steer them in the right direction.
>
> This makes sense to me. Where I start having problems is when a class of
> works share a small common vocabulary - how much is needed in order for
> something to become a genre rather than a subject?
>
> Throwing some video game related cases out there:
>
> * Sports game /en/sports_game: clearly a Video Game Genre
> * Arena football /en/arena_football: I'd say a subject. There's no new
>  vocabulary used specifically in arena football games
> * American football /guid/9202a8c04000641f800000000000427f: this is
>  the sort of thing about which I have problems - I don't think there's
>  any new vocabulary used here that isn't common to other sports games,
>  but maybe that's just because I don't play this sort of game much.
> * Zombie /en/zombie: Currently typed as a genre, but I'd say more a
>  subject.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil
>
> --
>  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
>  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 06:06:55 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:06:55 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <1EB308AD-BDCD-4BD3-BE8C-AE7CBBF8A9DB@metaweb.com>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1EB308AD-BDCD-4BD3-BE8C-AE7CBBF8A9DB@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911162206w58f21507p430bd9b1fab2c20b@mail.gmail.com>

>
> looking at your examples, some seem specific to 2009, so perhaps just
> a simple aggregate calendar of dates would work.
>

The problem with that is that modeling in that much detail for each year,
I'm not sure when it would get updated. Perhaps that is a separate issue.


>
> it would be great to be able to model 'closed on the second wednesday
> of the month' but I think that needs a whole new type proposal.
>

Would a Recurring Date type be useful, that could represent the recurrence
pattern and range?


>
> -jg
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Paul Mackay wrote:
>
> > Thinking about how to record farmer's market vendors attendance
> > dates, I have a couple of questions:
> >
> > How to represent something like the "1st Saturday of May"? Day of
> > Year is too specific - it will change every year.
> >
> > Taking http://www.eatlocal.org/farm%20vendors/alberts_herbs.html as
> > an example, some vendors have pretty complex dates to represent. Any
> > thoughts on how to show certain dates in certain months, "every
> > week" for other months and so on? Or is trying to model all this
> > adding too much complexity?
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > paul
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From jg at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 17 06:21:25 2009
From: jg at metaweb.com (John Giannandrea)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:21:25 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Representing complex dates
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911162206w58f21507p430bd9b1fab2c20b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911142220p5ed350fakb573d4f61a452ccb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1EB308AD-BDCD-4BD3-BE8C-AE7CBBF8A9DB@metaweb.com>
	<be63e0470911162206w58f21507p430bd9b1fab2c20b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70C10EED-1B02-4CEF-A99C-541C2C8E3A63@metaweb.com>


Paul Mackay wrote:
> Would a Recurring Date type be useful, that could represent the  
> recurrence pattern and range?

yes, I think so.  ideally it would superset all the features of ISO  
8601 including repeating intervals.

-jg


From pauljmackay at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 06:27:04 2009
From: pauljmackay at gmail.com (Paul Mackay)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:27:04 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Creating topics for things with no obvious name
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911151435s4dbfa818y40439f5bdd195335@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911151409l73b9c819r2c78ffd9d1cc2447@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911151435s4dbfa818y40439f5bdd195335@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be63e0470911162227g72148673k300f9f5769d36453@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > Wild growing food sites
>
> CVT with properties for food, and location.
>

I tried this one, but doesnt the same problem occur for the Location
property of the CVT? It must be filled with a Location typed topic. How to
create that and isnt that topic going to end up with no obvious title?


> > Recycling bin locations (for clothes, books, etc)
>
> CVT with properties for location, recyclable material
>
> >
> > These are "things" that certainly have properties and locations, but I
> don't
> > see a way to add topics without a title unless they are CVTs. Is the best
> > thing to just invent a title based on what it is and the location, e.g.
> > "Noticeboard at 10th and Broadway"?
>
> This sort of name is OK if a CVT isn't suitable.
>
> > Or is it worth somehow modelling them as
> > CVTs by having a catch-all topic such as "Wild food sites in Vancouver"
> that
> > has a property listing a CVT type?
>
> We're going through deleting topics which are lists (they are replaced
> by Freebase views, and MQL queries), so not recommended. - see
> http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/Subject
> I'd suggest two topics - one for "wild food", the other for
> "vancouver" linked through a CVT.
>
> Iain
>
>
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > paul
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Data-modeling mailing list
> > Data-modeling at freebase.com
> > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
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From tfmorris at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 08:26:19 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:26:19 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Philip Kendall
<philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 02:29:55PM -0800, Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> I don't think we could limit it by the first definition, however. Looking at
>> books, in the US fiction market there are really only a few genres that are
>> marketing-based: mystery, romance, western, horror, science fiction,
>> fantasy, and erotica. But to say that "cyberpunk" or "police procedural" or
>> "technothriller" aren't genres by any popular conception would be
>> problematic, I think. ?I think people understand the idea of genres enough
>> that Kirrily's second definition would steer them in the right direction.
>
> This makes sense to me. Where I start having problems is when a class of
> works share a small common vocabulary - how much is needed in order for
> something to become a genre rather than a subject?

I think any subject can be a genre.  Of course there can be
non-subject based genres as well, e.g. first person shooter.  In my
mind, the only limit is that there are enough items in the genre to
make it interesting to talk about as a genre.  If it's got a top 10
list, that's a good enough indication to me that it could be
considered a genre.

What's the cost of extra genres?

> Throwing some video game related cases out there:
>
> * Sports game /en/sports_game: clearly a Video Game Genre
> * Arena football /en/arena_football: I'd say a subject. There's no new
> ?vocabulary used specifically in arena football games

I can't find any evidence that there are enough games to make it an
interesting genre, but if that changes in the future, I wouldn't
exclude it because it didn't have a good vocabulary.

> * American football /guid/9202a8c04000641f800000000000427f: this is
> ?the sort of thing about which I have problems - I don't think there's
> ?any new vocabulary used here that isn't common to other sports games,
>  but maybe that's just because I don't play this sort of game much.

There's a top 10 list and article about the genre here
http://www.ggl.com/?controller=News&id=3863&method=article
That's good enough for me.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:57 AM, Paul Mackay <pauljmackay at gmail.com> wrote:
> It may be specific to computer games but after reading Tom's comments it
> seemed to me that the genre would be something like WW2 or sports, but
> things like whether the game was 3D, first person, etc is rather more
> categorisation or properties of the game than distinct genres. Maybe not too
> significant though....

Genres are precisely a categorization in my mind.  Genres can be
subject-based, but they can also be form based, e.g. Broadway musical,
first person shooter, haiku, etc.

Tom

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 09:41:23 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:41:23 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911170141m17b928a6n90965568a770c554@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Tom Morris <tfmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Genres are precisely a categorization in my mind. ?Genres can be
> subject-based, but they can also be form based, e.g. Broadway musical,
> first person shooter, haiku, etc.

This may be true, but for the purposes of Freebase ontologies I'd
suggest that we make the definition of genre as narrow as possible,
otherwise the genre property will become conflated.  All sorts of
values that would be better placed on specific properties will end up
as genre.   For example, a "poem form" property would be useful but if
haikus are only related through the genre property then that
additional information gets lost.

There's also an argument for having both haiku on both properties as a
both a poem form and a genre, but it makes searching for all haikus
problematic as there are then multiple properties to search in. (or
gardening task required to keep them in sync)

I'd suggest that the Freebase definition of genre is limited to a
categorisation of subject matter.  But we still have to decide where
the boundary between the two lies.

Iain

>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk  Tue Nov 17 13:04:56 2009
From: philip-freebase at shadowmagic.org.uk (Philip Kendall)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:04:56 +0000
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091117130456.GN18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 03:26:19AM -0500, Tom Morris wrote:
> 
> I think any subject can be a genre.

So where would that leave the distinction between a Video Game Subject
and a Video Game Genre?

Thinking out loud here... perhaps a genre is a form of categorisation
which is *not* a subject - eg first person shooter and sports game are
genres because they're not subjects, but American football and World War
II would be subjects.

Cheers,

Phil

-- 
  Philip Kendall <philip at shadowmagic.org.uk>
  http://www.shadowmagic.org.uk/

From jeff at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 17 18:06:21 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:06:21 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs
In-Reply-To: <be63e0470911162149o2ce17190u78f3d1de005eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be63e0470911142145g34676554x64f325292fa431ec@mail.gmail.com><DD231A7C2B2F48C3A0655EED1947F110@p4>
	<be63e0470911162149o2ce17190u78f3d1de005eb8e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F39E066C7ECE47378B323BB535095BC5@amd>

No, you can upload multiple values per property in the spreadsheet loader.
Values after the first should be listed on otherwise empty rows below the
first value.  Take a look at the "complex sample" in the loader -- the
columns "/film/film/starring:/film/performance/actor" and
"/film/film/starring:/film/performance/character" contain non-unique CVT
values.  (I find that it helps to copy the sample data into a spreadsheet --
it's pretty hard to parse in the textbox.)
 
Jeff


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mackay
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:49 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs


Actually I was using the spreadsheet loader. I followed the docs on
importing CVTs, and it certainly would work for CVTs that are 1-1 pairs. But
it fails when one property of the CVT can have multiple values. Is this
expected behaviour for this tool?

paul


On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:


Assuming that you're talking about the list importer
(http://www.freebase.com/importer/list), it doesn't handle non-unique CVT
properties at all.  For this, you need to use the (very alpha-y) spreadsheet
loader: http://data.labs.freebase.com/recon/recon.html. Or just load one
value, and add the rest by hand later (fun, I know).
 
Jeff
  


  _____  

From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
[mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mackay
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:46 PM
To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
Subject: [Data-modeling] Using the data loader to upload CVTs


I found an issue with uploading CVTs that I'm not sure how to resolve from
the docs. I'm experimenting with uploading a Food producing region which has
a CVT of Produce availability. Produce availability has Produce and months
available. Typically one Produce entry will have multiple Months available
entries, but when I add using the data loader, it interprets each line as a
separate pair, so if adding 1 Produce with 3 Months available, I get 3
entries, the latter 2 containing just the months.

Is there a trick to tie the months available column to the preceeding
Produce column?

thanks

paul



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Data-modeling mailing list
Data-modeling at freebase.com
http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling




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From zenkat at metaweb.com  Tue Nov 17 20:06:14 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:06:14 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] [Freebase-experts] open library editions test
	load
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911161615q6ef15896i65660d0627061a0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1FB69464-A638-43DE-9A0C-F181D0D6C9A2@metaweb.com>
	<FC326432-3EFA-4946-9009-154C3DB20751@metaweb.com>
	<1A5B1864-7B59-4585-ABFB-2DCC22BEB28A@metaweb.com>
	<FDE31255-EAD3-4B5D-9730-CA972D038DE8@metaweb.com>
	<97E81B9E-10CF-4540-BE52-B79D76A2C767@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911161615q6ef15896i65660d0627061a0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC5921CC-B5FA-47CC-A036-DCB90B0ADA04@metaweb.com>


On Nov 16, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Tom Morris wrote:

>> The final round of QC on the Open Library Editions load has  
>> completed, and
>> we started loading the ~2.2M passing editions into Freebase over the
>> weekend.  The load contains just under 17M "triples", and at  
>> current load
>> speeds will take just over a week (!) to complete.
>
> Very cool!  Any update on the estimated completion of this phase?

Thanks!  We're very happy with how it all turned out.  It looks like  
the iterative loads have really helped with quality.

We're a almost halfway there: 8M triples have loaded, and 9M triples  
remain.

> Also, for those of us with porous memories, can you recap where we
> stand in the grand scheme of things?  Which of the 1.2M/2.2M figures
> is correct (I've seen both) and what % of the total does it represent?

The figures in the final email are correct.  There are 2.1M new  
edition topics and 165K reconciled editions.  We had 8.8M topics  
before we started this load; this will take us to just under 11M topics.

> Does the remainder get addressed "soon," in a year or two, or never?
>
> What additional phases, if any, are there left to do for the
> OpenLibrary project?

We are drawing our OpenLibrary loads to a close.

This doesn't mean we're done with books, though.  We are still  
actively pursuing data loads to improve the quality, completeness and  
reconciliation of our book data.  It's still a bit premature to go  
into all of the details, but suffice it to say that we're actively  
working with more than one highly curated data bibliographic data  
set.  With them, we hope to be able to automatically reconcile some of  
the Open Library authors, flesh out the data on the books we've  
already loaded, and load even more new books.

More as the details firm up -- a blog post is in the works.

Brian

From faye at metaweb.com  Wed Nov 18 23:30:26 2009
From: faye at metaweb.com (Faye Harris)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:30:26 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911170141m17b928a6n90965568a770c554@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com>
	<FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>	<c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911170141m17b928a6n90965568a770c554@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B048392.4030706@metaweb.com>

Suppose each of the foo genre types had properties for "sub genres" and 
"parent genres"? This would *soften* the problem of searching for things 
of a specific genre: you can go as specific or as general as you'd like: 
ask for "dramas", or "police procedurals", depending on what you're 
looking for.

To me the difference between genre and subject is the difference between 
"is-a" and "about". Simple example: "The Autobiography of Benjamin 
Franklin" is-a biography/autobiography (genre), and is about Benjamin 
Franklin (subject). "Biography" is the subject of a book only if that 
book is about biographies: history of biographies, how to write them, 
etc. This distinction that I see clearly in books and films, appear -- 
at least to me -- to be somewhat fuzzy in video games. This leads me to 
conclude that the difference in uses for "genre" and "subject" can vary 
from industry to industry; they are jargons that cannot be generalized 
or singly defined across the board in Freebase.

I'm of the practical kind when it comes to modeling ontologies. The 
perfect schema too difficult or tricky to use will see resistance from 
users in terms of adoption, and result in higher error rate in data. 
Given that we on this mailing list cannot agree on the distinction 
between "genre" and "subject" and what constitutes either, I think we 
are pretty much guaranteed to end up with data cotyped with both no 
matter how we ultimately define them. What we will also need then, is a 
gardening process to identify and fix problems as they crop up.

-- Faye


Iain Sproat wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Tom Morris <tfmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Genres are precisely a categorization in my mind.  Genres can be
>> subject-based, but they can also be form based, e.g. Broadway musical,
>> first person shooter, haiku, etc.
>>     
>
> This may be true, but for the purposes of Freebase ontologies I'd
> suggest that we make the definition of genre as narrow as possible,
> otherwise the genre property will become conflated.  All sorts of
> values that would be better placed on specific properties will end up
> as genre.   For example, a "poem form" property would be useful but if
> haikus are only related through the genre property then that
> additional information gets lost.
>
> There's also an argument for having both haiku on both properties as a
> both a poem form and a genre, but it makes searching for all haikus
> problematic as there are then multiple properties to search in. (or
> gardening task required to keep them in sync)
>
> I'd suggest that the Freebase definition of genre is limited to a
> categorisation of subject matter.  But we still have to decide where
> the boundary between the two lies.
>
> Iain
>
>   
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>   


From zenkat at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 19 05:52:30 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:52:30 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<4AFDCE92.4070309@gmail.com> <FD7CCF10EBAC48288073D9EA0362866D@p4>
	<20091116180559.GG18508@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911170026k537f5d1qc798b04e8ccc4814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C1CD32B-A7EF-492A-AB71-F0CCE23E5D8C@metaweb.com>


On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:26 AM, Tom Morris wrote:

>> This makes sense to me. Where I start having problems is when a  
>> class of
>> works share a small common vocabulary - how much is needed in order  
>> for
>> something to become a genre rather than a subject?
>
> I think any subject can be a genre.  Of course there can be
> non-subject based genres as well, e.g. first person shooter.  In my
> mind, the only limit is that there are enough items in the genre to
> make it interesting to talk about as a genre.  If it's got a top 10
> list, that's a good enough indication to me that it could be
> considered a genre.
>
> What's the cost of extra genres?

The problem with this is that is when the definition between genre and  
subject  becomes blurred, then the data entered into them becomes  
messy and hard to query.

For instance -- if I'm interested in books about Vampires, where do I  
look?  In the /book/book/genre property or the /book/written_work/ 
subject property?  Or, conversely, do I look in the /en/ 
vampire_fiction (genre) topic or the /en/vampire (subject) topic?

Brian

From zenkat at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 19 06:55:57 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:55:57 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>


On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Kirrily Robert wrote:

> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc.  I was just pondering it and
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
> vocabulary


Speaking specifically of books, the Library of Congress has a very  
clear and strict distinction between genres and subjects.  In LOC- 
land, a genre is a very high-level description of the literary  
composition of the work, such as:

novel
essay
biography
short story

There is a controlled, enumerated list of 92 accepted genres for LOC  
MARC records which have been compiled from various libraries and other  
sources of bibliographic information available at: http://www.loc.gov/marc/sourcecode/genre/genrelist.html 
  .

You'll note that the LOC's genre list doesn't even include items like  
"science fiction".  Instead, that's considered a subject in LOC-land,  
along with vampires, zombies, and the like.  The list of subjects, as  
one might imagine, is quite a bit larger than the genre list:  
currently the LOC's Subject Authority contains 365,698 records,  
carefully curated in a tree of broader and narrower terms.  It's  
available for searching and downloading online at:

	http://id.loc.gov/authorities/search/

It's a highly-curated, public-domain data set.  According to the LOC,  
it's been maintained since 1898 and is considered "the only subject  
headings list accepted as the worldwide standard."

Oh, and did I mention that curated subject headings are also the LOC's  
first foray into the world of linked data?  Pretty cool -- and very  
Freebase.

Brian
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From tfmorris at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 07:45:26 2009
From: tfmorris at gmail.com (Tom Morris)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:45:26 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <c5f3f16f0911182345v28cc3735p3306d24a65e11e44@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like the majority believe genre and subject should be disjoint,
rather than subsets, per the dictionary definition.  I'm not sure it
eliminates the query problem that Brian highlighted, but if there's a
clear separation, I'm cool with letting folks try to enforce it.

Tom

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:55 AM, Brian Karlak <zenkat at metaweb.com> wrote:
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Kirrily Robert wrote:
>
> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc. ?I was just pondering it and
> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
> share and ask opinions on:
>
> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
> vocabulary
>
> Speaking specifically of books, the Library of Congress has a very clear and
> strict distinction between genres and subjects. ?In LOC-land, a genre is a
> very high-level description of the literary composition of the work, such
> as:
>
> novel
> essay
> biography
> short story
>
> There is a controlled, enumerated list of 92 accepted genres for LOC MARC
> records which have been compiled from various libraries and other sources of
> bibliographic information available at:
> http://www.loc.gov/marc/sourcecode/genre/genrelist.html .
> You'll note that the LOC's genre list doesn't even include items like
> "science fiction". ?Instead, that's considered?a subject in LOC-land, along
> with?vampires,?zombies, and?the like. ?The list of subjects, as one might
> imagine, is quite a bit larger than the genre list: currently the LOC's
> Subject Authority contains 365,698 records, carefully curated in a tree of
> broader and narrower terms. ?It's available for searching and downloading
> online at:
> http://id.loc.gov/authorities/search/
> It's a highly-curated, public-domain data set. ?According to the LOC, it's
> been maintained since 1898 and is considered "the only subject headings list
> accepted as the worldwide standard."
> Oh, and did I mention that curated subject headings are also the LOC's first
> foray into the world of?linked data? ?Pretty cool -- and very Freebase.
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>
>

From iainsproat at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 07:55:31 2009
From: iainsproat at gmail.com (Iain Sproat)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:55:31 +0400
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <c5f3f16f0911182345v28cc3735p3306d24a65e11e44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911182345v28cc3735p3306d24a65e11e44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70332fb0911182355t3189735fib4bc41756b45ece5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Tom Morris <tfmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like the majority believe genre and subject should be disjoint,
> rather than subsets, per the dictionary definition. ?I'm not sure it
> eliminates the query problem that Brian highlighted, but if there's a
> clear separation, I'm cool with letting folks try to enforce it.

It would be easy to enforce if genre was made an enumerated type.

Iain

>
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:55 AM, Brian Karlak <zenkat at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Kirrily Robert wrote:
>>
>> We've had various discussions about what makes a subject and what
>> makes a genre for books/film/games/etc. ?I was just pondering it and
>> two possible definitions of genre occurred to me that I wanted to
>> share and ask opinions on:
>>
>> 1) an established segmentation for the purposes of marketing
>> 2) a group of works which share tropes and have a similar creative
>> vocabulary
>>
>> Speaking specifically of books, the Library of Congress has a very clear and
>> strict distinction between genres and subjects. ?In LOC-land, a genre is a
>> very high-level description of the literary composition of the work, such
>> as:
>>
>> novel
>> essay
>> biography
>> short story
>>
>> There is a controlled, enumerated list of 92 accepted genres for LOC MARC
>> records which have been compiled from various libraries and other sources of
>> bibliographic information available at:
>> http://www.loc.gov/marc/sourcecode/genre/genrelist.html .
>> You'll note that the LOC's genre list doesn't even include items like
>> "science fiction". ?Instead, that's considered?a subject in LOC-land, along
>> with?vampires,?zombies, and?the like. ?The list of subjects, as one might
>> imagine, is quite a bit larger than the genre list: currently the LOC's
>> Subject Authority contains 365,698 records, carefully curated in a tree of
>> broader and narrower terms. ?It's available for searching and downloading
>> online at:
>> http://id.loc.gov/authorities/search/
>> It's a highly-curated, public-domain data set. ?According to the LOC, it's
>> been maintained since 1898 and is considered "the only subject headings list
>> accepted as the worldwide standard."
>> Oh, and did I mention that curated subject headings are also the LOC's first
>> foray into the world of?linked data? ?Pretty cool -- and very Freebase.
>> Brian
>> _______________________________________________
>> Data-modeling mailing list
>> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Data-modeling mailing list
> Data-modeling at freebase.com
> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>

From robert at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 19 08:12:49 2009
From: robert at metaweb.com (robert at metaweb.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:12:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <f70332fb0911182355t3189735fib4bc41756b45ece5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911182345v28cc3735p3306d24a65e11e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911182355t3189735fib4bc41756b45ece5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5278DF5-D101-4D28-B3D0-B7829B50A76B@metaweb.com>

This is the right solution, provided the data entry UI doesn't  
collapse under so many genres.  It should be tested.

Re: LOC genres: this set is too restrictive for most purposes.  Most  
people and applications would expect that science fiction is a  
literary genre.

On Nov 18, 2009, at 11:58 PM, Iain Sproat <iainsproat at gmail.com> wrote:

> It would be easy to enforce if genre was made an enumerated type.

From zenkat at metaweb.com  Thu Nov 19 20:32:51 2009
From: zenkat at metaweb.com (Brian Karlak)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:32:51 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Genres
In-Reply-To: <A5278DF5-D101-4D28-B3D0-B7829B50A76B@metaweb.com>
References: <F6D863D7-971A-4F21-BFB5-CEB3A816F801@metaweb.com>
	<D37E2553-D264-45FE-95D5-191AA2361792@metaweb.com>
	<c5f3f16f0911182345v28cc3735p3306d24a65e11e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<f70332fb0911182355t3189735fib4bc41756b45ece5@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5278DF5-D101-4D28-B3D0-B7829B50A76B@metaweb.com>
Message-ID: <8C407200-3C48-44D5-B836-F60417EDAD68@metaweb.com>


On Nov 19, 2009, at 12:12 AM, robert at metaweb.com wrote:

> This is the right solution, provided the data entry UI doesn't
> collapse under so many genres.  It should be tested.
>
> Re: LOC genres: this set is too restrictive for most purposes.  Most
> people and applications would expect that science fiction is a
> literary genre.

I agree, the LOC model is a bit restrictive and pedantic.  Of course,  
there's a certain beauty to that -- it certainly provides clarity as  
to what exactly is a genre and what is a subject.  But it's unlikely  
to ever get traction with anyone who's not a librarian.

However, if we ever want to get traction with the librarian community,  
it seems like supporting the core concepts promoted by the LOC for  
genres and subjects would be a good idea.

I think we can satisfy both communities.  The LOC genres could be the  
core set of /book/literary_genres.  These could be co-typed with /book/ 
loc_genre (or a flag could be added to literary_genre) so that those  
who cared about the LOC's system could only return LOC genres.  This  
core set could then be fleshed out with whatever non-LOC genres are  
needed to make the LOC's system sensible for laypeople.

Brian 
  

From jeff at metaweb.com  Fri Nov 20 22:33:12 2009
From: jeff at metaweb.com (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:33:12 -0800
Subject: [Data-modeling] Engineering types for possible promotion
Message-ID: <0A38FA40198642C79669CE06B9D24303@p4>

Iain (sprocketonline) has been working hard on some schemata for the
Engineering commons. I propose that the schemata for engines, batteries, and
mains power be promoted to the commons.  The primary types for these are 

http://engineeringdraft.freebase.com/view/base/engineeringdraft/engine
http://engineeringdraft.freebase.com/view/base/engineeringdraft/battery
http://engineeringdraft.freebase.com/view/base/engineeringdraft/mains_power

While you're poking around the EngineeringDraft base, you might also want to
look at the Manufactured Component schema -- this is a potentially powerful
schema, but because it could potentially touch so many more types and
domains than the other three here, I'd like to have a bit more review:

http://engineeringdraft.freebase.com/view/base/engineeringdraft/manufactured
_component

Let us know your thoughts or suggestions.

Jeff Prucher
Type Librarian & Ontologist
Metaweb Technologies, Inc. 



From spencerkelly86 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 06:19:39 2009
From: spencerkelly86 at gmail.com (Spencer Kelly)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:19:39 -0500
Subject: [Data-modeling] Engineering types for possible promotion
In-Reply-To: <0A38FA40198642C79669CE06B9D24303@p4>
References: <0A38FA40198642C79669CE06B9D24303@p4>
Message-ID: <db945ac40911202219l76e12c40g41ce681ff2937658@mail.gmail.com>

+1
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