[Data-modeling] Products with ingredients
Tom Morris
tfmorris at gmail.com
Tue Jun 30 20:56:00 UTC 2009
Thanks for recreating the sandbox. I tried to follow up on this
earlier today and it had been blown away in the refresh.
I agree with Faye. Looks good.
Tom
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Jeff Prucher<jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> And one last time:
> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/default_domain/views
> /cheerios_ingredients
>
> Jeff
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
>> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:38 PM
>> To: 'Freebase data modeling mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with ingredients
>>
>> Here's a revised schema with the derives from/derivative
>> properties. Lemme know whatcha think:
>>
>> <http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/typelibrarian/defau
>> lt_domain/view
>> s/cranberry_almond_crunch_ingredients>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Faye Harris
>> > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 2:24 PM
>> > To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with ingredients
>> >
>> > +1 on adding the parent-child relationship so that we'd have both
>> > "variety of" and "derives from" properties, instead of just
>> the former
>> > for both purposes.
>> >
>> > -- Faye
>> >
>> >
>> > Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> > > There are three examples upthread that led to the phylogeny
>> > pattern,
>> > > each of which is a slightly different case:
>> > >
>> > > (variety) <--> (generalization)
>> > > Milled corn <--> Corn
>> > > Sodium lauryl sulfate (from coconut oil) <--> Sodium
>> lauryl sulfate
>> > > Enriched flour (foo, bar, bazz, fazz) <--> Enriched flour
>> > >
>> > > Faye's division fits this pretty well:
>> > > Milled corn is derived from corn; SLS (from coconut) is a
>> > variety of
>> > > SLS, and is also derived from coconut; enriched flour
>> > (etc., usw) is a
>> > > variety of enriched flour. (Reviewing this thread, I note that Ed
>> > > suggested a Processed Ingredient type way back at the outset.)
>> > >
>> > > The big question is, would we be asking for trouble by adding a
>> > > parent/child relationship to this, in addition to the two
>> phylogeny
>> > > patterns? Or should we just punt it for now?
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > >> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of
>> Tom Morris
>> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:37 AM
>> > >> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with ingredients
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm with Faye. It seems very weird to have rice flour
>> and rice so
>> > >> strongly related. I don't consider rice flour to be a
>> > generalization
>> > >> of rice at all. About the only places where they would
>> > potentially
>> > >> interchangeable would be for nutritional information or
>> > for allergies.
>> > >> You might be able to substitute basmati rice for jasmine
>> > rice if you
>> > >> didn't care too much about the difference in texture or
>> > maintaining
>> > >> cultural authenticity, but if you substituted rice flour (of any
>> > >> variety), you'd be in a whole heap of trouble.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> The examples in the schema descriptions (yay for
>> > >> descriptions!) seem to have the same problem. You can get
>> > lavender
>> > >> oil out of a lavender plant, but they aren't
>> > generalizations of each
>> > >> other. If anything, the generalization would be aromatic oil or
>> > >> fragrance or something.
>> > >>
>> > >> For most applications, it's more useful to have things linked
>> > >> together because of common properties rather than
>> because they are
>> > >> made from the same source material or by the same process.
>> > >>
>> > >> -1 for making this even more obscure by linking in Material.
>> > >>
>> > >> Tom
>> > >>
>> > >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Faye Harris
>> > <faye at metaweb.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Very cool!
>> > >>
>> > >> That rice flour is called a "variety of" rice in the schema is
>> > >> indeed very odd.
>> > >>
>> > >> Based on the sandbox examples, this schema seems to use
>> > "variety of"
>> > >> for two types of relationships:
>> > >> 1) variety of, e.g. brown rice is a "variety of" rice
>> > >> 2) derived from, e.g. rice flour is "derived from" rice
>> > >>
>> > >> The former relationship is categorical, the latter relates to
>> > >> post-processing.
>> > >>
>> > >> -- Faye
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> OK, I've got the double-phylogeny pattern
>> > working now. Take a look
>> > >> here:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/type/schema/business/product_i
>> > >>
>> > > ngredient
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> And here's a table view of the ingredients of a
>> > breakfast cereal I
>> > >> found in
>> > >> the office kitchen:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/jeff/default_domain/
>> > >>
>> > > views/cranberr
>> > >
>> > >> y_almond_crunch_ingredients
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm not really happy with the "variety of" and
>> > "generalization of"
>> > >> names,
>> > >> but I'm not coming up with anything better. Any
>> > suggestions would
>> > >> be most
>> > >> welcome.
>> > >>
>> > >> Jeff
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > >>
>> > >> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Jeff Prucher
>> > >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 11:42 AM
>> > >> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products
>> > with ingredients
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- "Faye Harris" <faye at metaweb.com>
>> > <mailto:faye at metaweb.com>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> From: "Faye Harris"
>> > >> <faye at metaweb.com> <mailto:faye at metaweb.com>
>> > >> To: "Freebase data modeling
>> > >> mailing list"
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> <data-modeling at freebase.com>
>> > >> <mailto:data-modeling at freebase.com>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009
>> > >> 2:59:19 PM GMT -08:00
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> US/Canada Pacific
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling]
>> > >> Products with ingredients
>> > >>
>> > >> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- "Robert Cook"
>> > >> <robert at metaweb.com> <mailto:robert at metaweb.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> One solution would be
>> > >> to create a topic with a long name -- enter
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> it
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> exactly as it appears
>> > >> on the label such as "Enriched flour -
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> (wheat,
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> niacin, iron, baby
>> > >> powder, sawdust, DDT)".
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> This would answer.
>> > >> Anyone else have any comments or
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> thoughts on this
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> before I load the schema?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> The main problem with this is
>> > >> you can't arrive at the products that
>> > >> use enriched flour by clicking
>> > >> on a property link from a single
>> > >> "enriched
>> > >>
>> > >> flour" topic. Rather, you have
>> > >> to do a keyword search for products
>> > >> based on matching all the
>> > >> various "enriched flour - (foo, bar, bat,
>> > >> baz)"
>> > >> ingredient topics with the
>> > >> words "enriched" and "flour".
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> That's quite
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> a loss in queriability.> >
>> > >> The schema is fine to get us
>> > >> started, but we're still going
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> to try to
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> put together some phylogeny
>> > >> pattern in place (in the near future)
>> > >> right?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> I plan to add a phylogeny pattern
>> before moving the schema to
>> > >> freebase.com, which should help
>> queryability. It doesn't
>> > >> address the fact that topics named
>> things like "enriched
>> > >> flour (that, that, the other thing)"
>> > >> are exceedingly ugly,
>> > >> however (no-one said it was called
>> "prettybase.com", though).
>> > >> I was going to post a revised schema
>> to sandbox, with the
>> > >> double-phylogeny pattern suggested by
>> Robert, but it got
>> > >> horribly munged in the process. I'll
>> try to fix it, but it
>> > >> might not be till next week.
>> > >>
>> > >> Jeff
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Data-modeling mailing list
>> > >> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> > >>
>> > >> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Data-modeling mailing list
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>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Data-modeling mailing list
>> > >> Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> > >> http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > >
>> >
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