[Data-modeling] Products with ingredients

Faye Harris faye at metaweb.com
Fri Jun 26 21:24:04 UTC 2009


+1 on adding the parent-child relationship so that we'd have both 
"variety of" and "derives from" properties, instead of just the former 
for both purposes.

-- Faye


Jeff Prucher wrote:
> There are three examples upthread that led to the phylogeny pattern, each of
> which is a slightly different case:
>
> (variety) <--> (generalization)
> Milled corn <--> Corn
> Sodium lauryl sulfate (from coconut oil) <--> Sodium lauryl sulfate Enriched
> flour (foo, bar, bazz, fazz) <--> Enriched flour
>
> Faye's division fits this pretty well: 
> Milled corn is derived from corn; SLS (from coconut) is a variety of SLS,
> and is also derived from coconut; enriched flour (etc., usw) is a variety of
> enriched flour. (Reviewing this thread, I note that Ed suggested a Processed
> Ingredient type way back at the outset.)  
>
> The big question is, would we be asking for trouble by adding a parent/child
> relationship to this, in addition to the two phylogeny patterns?  Or should
> we just punt it for now?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Tom Morris
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:37 AM
>> To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products with ingredients
>>
>> I'm with Faye.  It seems very weird to have rice flour and rice so 
>> strongly related.  I don't consider rice flour to be a generalization 
>> of rice at all.  About the only places where they would potentially 
>> interchangeable would be for nutritional information or for allergies.  
>> You might be able to substitute basmati rice for jasmine rice if you 
>> didn't care too much about the difference in texture or maintaining 
>> cultural authenticity, but if you substituted rice flour (of any 
>> variety), you'd be in a whole heap of trouble.
>>
>>
>> The examples in the schema descriptions (yay for 
>> descriptions!) seem to have the same problem.  You can get 
>> lavender oil out of a lavender plant, but they aren't 
>> generalizations of each other.  If anything, the 
>> generalization would be aromatic oil or fragrance or something.
>>
>> For most applications, it's more useful to have things linked 
>> together because of common properties rather than because 
>> they are made from the same source material or by the same process.
>>
>> -1 for making this even more obscure by linking in Material.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Faye Harris <faye at metaweb.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 	Very cool!
>> 	
>> 	That rice flour is called a "variety of" rice in the 
>> schema is indeed very odd.
>> 	
>> 	Based on the sandbox examples, this schema seems to use 
>> "variety of" for two types of relationships:
>> 	    1) variety of, e.g. brown rice is a "variety of" rice
>> 	    2) derived from, e.g. rice flour is "derived from" rice
>> 	
>> 	The former relationship is categorical, the latter 
>> relates to post-processing.
>> 	
>> 	-- Faye 
>>
>>
>>
>> 	Jeff Prucher wrote: 
>>
>> 		OK, I've got the double-phylogeny pattern 
>> working now. Take a look here:
>> 		
>> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/type/schema/business/product_i
>>     
> ngredient
>   
>> 		
>> 		And here's a table view of the ingredients of a 
>> breakfast cereal I found in
>> 		the office kitchen:
>> 		
>> http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/user/jeff/default_domain/
>>     
> views/cranberr
>   
>> 		y_almond_crunch_ingredients
>> 		
>> 		I'm not really happy with the "variety of" and 
>> "generalization of" names,
>> 		but I'm not coming up with anything better. Any 
>> suggestions would be most
>> 		welcome.
>> 		
>> 		Jeff
>> 		
>> 		  
>>
>> 			-----Original Message-----
>> 			From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com 
>> 			
>> [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Prucher
>> 			Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 11:42 AM
>> 			To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> 			Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Products 
>> with ingredients
>> 			
>> 			
>> 			----- "Faye Harris" <faye at metaweb.com> 
>> <mailto:faye at metaweb.com>  wrote:
>> 			
>> 			    
>>
>> 				From: "Faye Harris" 
>> <faye at metaweb.com> <mailto:faye at metaweb.com> 
>> 				To: "Freebase data modeling 
>> mailing list" 
>> 				      
>>
>> 			<data-modeling at freebase.com> 
>> <mailto:data-modeling at freebase.com> 
>> 			    
>>
>> 				Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 
>> 2:59:19 PM GMT -08:00 
>> 				      
>>
>> 			US/Canada Pacific
>> 			    
>>
>> 				Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] 
>> Products with ingredients
>> 				
>> 				Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> 				      
>>
>> 					----- "Robert Cook" 
>> <robert at metaweb.com> <mailto:robert at metaweb.com>  wrote:
>> 					
>> 					  
>> 					        
>>
>> 					One solution would be 
>> to create a topic with a long name -- enter
>> 					          
>>
>> 				it
>> 				      
>>
>> 					exactly as it appears 
>> on the label such as "Enriched flour -
>> 					          
>>
>> 				(wheat,
>> 				      
>>
>> 					niacin, iron, baby 
>> powder, sawdust, DDT)".
>> 					    
>> 					          
>>
>> 					This would answer. 
>> Anyone else have any comments or 
>> 					        
>>
>> 			thoughts on this
>> 			    
>>
>> 				before I load the schema?
>> 				      
>>
>> 					  
>> 					        
>>
>> 				The main problem with this is 
>> you can't arrive at the products that 
>> 				use enriched flour by clicking 
>> on a property link from a single 
>> 				"enriched
>> 				
>> 				flour" topic. Rather, you have 
>> to do a keyword search for products 
>> 				based on matching all the 
>> various "enriched flour - (foo, bar, bat, 
>> 				baz)"
>> 				ingredient topics with the 
>> words "enriched" and "flour". 
>> 				      
>>
>> 			That's quite 
>> 			    
>>
>> 				a loss in queriability.> > 
>> 				The schema is fine to get us 
>> started, but we're still going 
>> 				      
>>
>> 			to try to
>> 			    
>>
>> 				put together some phylogeny 
>> pattern in place (in the near future) 
>> 				right?
>> 				      
>>
>> 		  
>>
>> 			I plan to add a phylogeny pattern 
>> before moving the schema to 
>> 			freebase.com, which should help 
>> queryability. It doesn't 
>> 			address the fact that topics named 
>> things like "enriched 
>> 			flour (that, that, the other thing)" 
>> are exceedingly ugly, 
>> 			however (no-one said it was called 
>> "prettybase.com", though). 
>> 			 I was going to post a revised schema 
>> to sandbox, with the 
>> 			double-phylogeny pattern suggested by 
>> Robert, but it got 
>> 			horribly munged in the process. I'll 
>> try to fix it, but it 
>> 			might not be till next week.
>> 			
>> 			Jeff
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>
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