[Data-modeling] Add page number(s) to "Quotation"
Ed Laurent
spatial.db at gmail.com
Thu Dec 4 01:05:32 UTC 2008
<punt>
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Jeff Prucher <jeff at metaweb.com> wrote:
> If all you need to cite are articles, technical reports, and the like,
> I'd suggest punting the book edition problem entirely for this use case.
>
> Jeff
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com [mailto:
> data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Ed Laurent
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:26 PM
>
> *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] Add page number(s) to "Quotation"
>
> Great suggestions. However, linking to book edition is not an option for
> journal articles. In fact, "Book edition" doesn't even include "Written
> work". This has been a thorny issue for me for other reasons too and I'm
> slowly understanding why "Book edition" is modeled this way but it seems to
> make properties such as "Cited quotation" impossible(?) to apply to all
> written works.
>
> Maybe a generic "Cited quotation" type could be implemented as a property
> of all written works if it had separate "Written work cited" and "Book
> edition cited" properties... ?
>
> -Ed
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Tadhg O'Higgins <tadhg at metaweb.com> wrote:
>
>> +1 for this suggestion of Jeff's.
>>
>> Perhaps a Cited Quotation type, with all properties delegated from
>> Quotation other than a References property?
>>
>> Actually, it's possible that the best way to do this would be to create
>> the Citation type that Tim suggested, have that take Book Edition (plus
>> page number, etc.), and then give Cited Quotation type a property that
>> accepted multiple Citation instances, so that e.g "There is no calamity
>> greater than lightly engaging in war." would have all the properties it
>> does here:
>> http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f800000000519187c
>> plus additional links to a CVT pointing to
>> http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000009a0b66b and a
>> page number.
>>
>> Tadhg
>>
>> Jeff Prucher wrote:
>> > You could create your own type, but delegate the relevant properties
>> > in from the quotation commons type. This would feed your quotes into
>> > the quotations commons, but allow you to add properties specific to
>> > your needs.
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com] *On Behalf Of *Ed
>> Laurent
>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:19 PM
>> > *To:* Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Data-modeling] Add page number(s) to "Quotation"
>> >
>> > Nope, I actually want to store quotes from published sources. I've
>> > talked with several editors who saw no legal issues with quoting a
>> > couple sentences (let me know if this is not the case and I'll
>> > stop). I want to do this because the quote gives more context to a
>> > bibliographic reference than the citation. It is also useful when
>> > a publication does not have an abstract.
>> >
>> > -Ed
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Tim Kientzle <tim at metaweb.com
>> > <mailto:tim at metaweb.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ed,
>> >
>> > Sounds like what you're looking for might be better described as
>> a
>> > "citation"
>> > or a "bibliographic reference." Agree that there's overlap
>> > between
>> > that and
>> > the informal use of the term "quotation," but given the
>> different
>> > usages, it
>> > may make sense to distinguish them.
>> >
>> > Tim Kientzle
>> >
>> > On Dec 3, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Ed Laurent wrote:
>> >
>> > > Um, I'm interpreting your responses as that I should create
>> > my own
>> > > quotation type. Most of the sources I want to quote (e.g.,
>> > journal
>> > > articles, technical reports) are only published once.
>> > >
>> > > I agree that page number isn't appropriate for the cases you
>> > suggest
>> > > but it is for mine and I try to use common types whenever
>> > possible.
>> > > There have been other situations where I've argued the other
>> > side of
>> > > properties needing to apply to all instances of types so this
>> > > conversation has taken a somewhat amusing turn.
>> > >
>> > > For now I guess I'll just model my own quotation type and try
>> to
>> > > keep it similar to the common one in case there are
>> > suggestions for
>> > > merging them later.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks!
>> > > -Ed
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Jeff Prucher
>> > <jeff at metaweb.com <mailto:jeff at metaweb.com>> wrote:
>> > > I agree -- page number isn't really applicable here.
>> > Technically,
>> > > since we
>> > > do have distinct types for book editions, it would be
>> > possible to
>> > > link the
>> > > source to a book edition, rather than to a book, but this
>> > seems like
>> > > a bad
>> > > idea. For one, it would be very hard to simply find all the
>> > quotes
>> > > from a
>> > > single book, since they might be spread across multiple
>> > editions.
>> > > But for
>> > > non-book works (plays, poems, essays, articles, etc.), a
>> > page number
>> > > would
>> > > be completely meaningless, since we do not have first-class
>> > topics
>> > > for every
>> > > appearance of these types of works.
>> > >
>> > > The reason we used "author" as the name of the property is
>> > because
>> > > we're
>> > > looking for the person who authored what was said (whether
>> > it was
>> > > written or
>> > > spoken impromptu), rather than the person who said it.
>> > Although, it
>> > > must be
>> > > said, this is still a problem with movie and TV quotes, so
>> > maybe it
>> > > doesn't
>> > > really make a difference in that regard.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > <mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com>
>> > > > [mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com
>> > <mailto:data-modeling-bounces at freebase.com>] On Behalf Of
>> > > > Kirrily Robert
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:54 PM
>> > > > To: Freebase data modeling mailing list
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Data-modeling] Add page number(s) to
>> "Quotation"
>> > > >
>> > > > Wouldn't page number be dependent on edition? On what page
>> > > > does Alice's "Curiouser and curiouser!" appear, for example?
>> > > >
>> > > > K.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Dec 3, 2008, at 1:15 PM, Ed Laurent wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'm thinking of using the "Quotation" type to store
>> > quotes from
>> > > > > published works but need a page number property because
>> > > > page numbers
>> > > > > are often required when citing quotations. It appears
>> > that the
>> > > page
>> > > > > number of the quote would need to be added as a
>> > > > disabiguator so that
>> > > > > this data can be entered when the "Quotation" type is
>> > linked as a
>> > > > > property of another type. Does this seem reasonable?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I also see that "Author" (linked to "Quotations" property
>> of
>> > > > > "Person") is a property of "Quotation", and I'm assuming
>> > > > that is for
>> > > > > instances when the quotation is not from a published
>> source.
>> > > > > Otherwise, it is adding denormalization. If this is the
>> > > > case, wouldn't
>> > > > > another name be more appropriate than "Author" (e.g.,
>> > > > "Quoted person")
>> > > > > to distinguish it from "Author" of quoted publications?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -Ed _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Data-modeling mailing list
>> > > > > Data-modeling at freebase.com
>> > <mailto:Data-modeling at freebase.com>
>> > > > > http://lists.freebase.com/mailman/listinfo/data-modeling
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Kirrily Robert
>> > > > Freebase Community Director
>> > > > kirrily at metaweb.com <mailto:kirrily at metaweb.com>
>> > > > http://freebase.com/
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
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>> >
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